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  #1  
Old 3rd May 2016, 11:41 AM
Svend Svend is offline
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Default Removing the red window

I was griping about this in another thread, but I really, really dislike the little red frame viewing windows on the backs of two folding MF cameras I've been playing with lately (actually, "dislike" is not strong enough a word -- I curse those blasted windows!). They're fine in bright light, but as soon as I move into deep shade or indoors, they are hopeless. Can't see a darned thing. The Franka is slightly better, but the Agfa might as well be opaque plastic for all the good it does.

It's been suggested that I bring my reading glasses and a strong flashlight in my camera bag. Or to switch from Ilford films which have hard to see numbers. Well, I happen to like Ilford films and want to be able use to whatever film I choose in these cameras. And I don't want to fuss with flashlight and spectacles every time I wind a frame.

So why can't I just cut the windows out altogether? The red having protected ortho films way back when, is apparently doing nothing to protect the panchro films of today. So what's the point of the windows, other than to cut back the amount of light hitting the film backing?

Here's what I propose to do..... Neither camera (Franka Rolfix IIE, Agfa Isolette II) has light seals around the perimeter of the windows. I can easily add some self-stick foam or felt between the pressure plate and film door surrounding the windows, thereby preventing light from escaping around the perimeter of the plates. To avoid burn through the backing onto the film, I would always keep the little sliding covers closed, only open during winding, and only with the windows shielded from direct sun. This way I will always be able to see the numbers, with any film and in any light, and not have to bother with flashlight and glasses. Sound reasonable?

Has anyone tried this kind of mod? How did it work out? Any fogging issues? I have heard that some old cameras had such light seals already built in around the windows. So this is not an unheard of idea.

If this works I will be much happier using these cameras. They are fiddly enough as they are, what with their little dials and tiny index markings and squinty finders. This would at least take away one of those little annoyances and make them a whole lot more user-friendly.

So I'm curious to hear if anyone has similarly cursed the windows and then done something about it.

Thanks! And regards,
Svend

Last edited by Svend; 3rd May 2016 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 3rd May 2016, 12:15 PM
DaveP DaveP is offline
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I would just remove the red filter and then run an old roll of film through the camera in bright light, just opening the covers to wind-on as normal, shoot with the lens cap on, then for the cost of a roll of film you'll know whether it's a problem or not.

I have a 6x17 back for 5x4" cameras that has sliding covers and no red filter, and it works fine in all the conditions I've used it without any issues.
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Old 3rd May 2016, 05:43 PM
Svend Svend is offline
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Hello Dave,

Thanks for the feedback. It's good to know that at least on some cameras it's possible to go without the red window altogether and not have problems. Also good to hear that you have no burn-through the paper backing onto the film. Gives me some confidence to go ahead with this, as once I cut the plastic out it would be a major pain to replace it if it doesn't work.

I think I would feel better adding some foam or felt around the windows, as the pressure plate is wide open around the edges. The one in the Franka may sit in a shallow recess if pushed back far enough when closed, but I can't confirm that is the case without very precise measurement.

Adding a seal to the Franka will be a breeze, as the plate just pops right off -- the spring arms are notched and slide into little studs which stand proud of the film door by a millimeter or so. A five minute job to stick some foam in there.

Svend
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Old 3rd May 2016, 08:43 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Svend, once you have cut the red window out let us know your experience without it.

Thanks

Mike
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Old 3rd May 2016, 08:57 PM
Svend Svend is offline
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Will do Mike. The Franka will be first as it's the easiest to work on.

I'm waiting for delivery of some light seal kits from USCamera.com (nice guys there, very helpful) for two of my other cameras, and they have included a couple of extra strips of foam which I will use for this purpose.

I seem to also have a light leak around the hinges of both cameras, so will use this foam to fix that problem.

I'll post back once I've done the mod. This will make these cameras SO much easier to use and should quell my cussing

Wonderful cameras, otherwise. Amazingly sharp optics. They make a great street camera.

Cheers,
Svend

Last edited by Svend; 3rd May 2016 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 4th May 2016, 09:08 AM
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GoodOldNorm GoodOldNorm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SvendN View Post
Will do Mike. The Franka will be first as it's the easiest to work on.

I'm waiting for delivery of some light seal kits from USCamera.com (nice guys there, very helpful) for two of my other cameras, and they have included a couple of extra strips of foam which I will use for this purpose.

I seem to also have a light leak around the hinges of both cameras, so will use this foam to fix that problem.

I'll post back once I've done the mod. This will make these cameras SO much easier to use and should quell my cussing

Wonderful cameras, otherwise. Amazingly sharp optics. They make a great street camera.

Cheers,
Svend
Have you considered just drilling a tiny hole through the red window and using clear tape to seal it or black tape to cover it for long exposures. you can then enlarge the hole if it is OK or repair the hole if it does not work.
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Last edited by GoodOldNorm; 4th May 2016 at 09:16 AM. Reason: added text
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Old 4th May 2016, 10:33 AM
Svend Svend is offline
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Hi Norm,

I hadn't really considered that. But I suppose some sort of test is probably a good idea, as once I cut the window out I'm pretty much committed. Getting a new one in will be a chore.

Since both cameras have a sliding cover for the windows, and the red plastic doesn't protect Pan films anyway, a pre-surgery test is easy. I might do as Paul suggested and sacrifice a few frames off a roll by leaving the slider open in full sun for, say, 5 or 10 minutes with 400 speed film. This will tell me if my new seals around the window are leaking. The Franka's windows are quite faded anyway, and are more orange now than red. I'm pretty sure they do little to protect the film other than reduce the amount of light getting in.

But first before I test I need to fix all other light leaks. I glued a hinge seal into the Franka last night, and its bellows are tight, but I will put some black yarn in the grooves of the film door recess just for insurance.

Finally, there is a nice bright exposed metal gouge on the rear lens element retaining ring where I flubbed up and the pliers slipped when extracting the lens (glass was spared, thankfully, and protected by tape). I think I might be getting light bounce-back onto the film from this, as there's a weird little flare on some negs, always in the same spot. Same shape as the gouge. Black marker should fix that.

With those done, I should be good to go.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

Svend
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Old 4th May 2016, 11:45 AM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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Svend, if you take the red window out then do not depend on the slider to cover uo when not winding, use some black electrical tape over the hole, the sliders are not that good on any folder, they are not light tight, so you will need some extra protection this would apply with any folder
Richard
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Old 4th May 2016, 01:37 PM
Svend Svend is offline
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Hi Richard,

Thanks for the tip. Do you think that there will still be light reaching the film if I completely surround the window with foam between pressure plate and door? Theoretically, if I do this right, there should be no light escaping around the edges of the plate. The only light would then hit the backing paper, and then only will get a direct hit when the slider is briefly opened for winding, which will be shaded from direct sun. Would you expect light to travel around the backing paper to the film?

I suppose this should be tested though (easy enough to do), and if it's no good then black tape it is. Sliders are easy to test for light fastness too -- same test as bellows, strong flashlight, dark room....

On another note, folder related -- there is an Ensign Selfix 820 for sale near me. Ross Xpres 105/3.8 lens, Epsilon shutter, asking C$140 (about £80). Said to be in good shape. Being the Ensign expert, what say you? Worth a poke at it? This is the first Ensign I have seen here in Canada, other than a sad looking box camera.

Svend

Edit: just checked with a flashlight, and you are correct, there is a small amount of light getting in around the sliders in both cameras. So, the question is, with the red plastic removed and light seal foam in place around the windows, will this be enough light hitting the backing paper to fog the film? I can check that with some 400 speed film once the mod is done, and use tape if it's a no-go.

Last edited by Svend; 4th May 2016 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 4th May 2016, 02:29 PM
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B&W Neil B&W Neil is offline
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I found out a few years ago that Fuji Across is the best film to use in these old cameras because it has a light outer backing paper with dark numbers / symbols, most other films have this the other way around. This arrangement is so much easier to see and you have to wonder why other film manufactures make life difficult for users of old cameras.

I wouldn't dare think about causing light leaks in any of my precious babies

Neil.
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