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> Graded or VC papers for Pyro-Negs? |
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#21
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One of Derbyshires finest Dave Butcher has a less complicated approach to producing fine photographs you can find him here : http://www.darkroomdave.com/tutorial...rade-printing/ and here http://www.davebutcher.co.uk/ . Steve Sherman's approach seems long winded to me it obviously works for him but I also doubt if it will suit everyone. If a novice asked me for advice about Black and White photography I would point that person in the direction of Mr. Butcher in preference to Mr. Sherman. $300 spondulicks would be better spent on film and paper.
__________________
"Tea is surely the king of all drinks. It helps against the cold, it helps against the heat,against discomfort and sickness, against weariness and weakness". Heinrich Harrer. |
#22
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I should be up on the moors today taking photographs in the fresh snow and sun. Instead I'm stuck here with a lousy cold so I'm going to take it out on Mr. Steve Sherman instead.
After reading about him here I looked him up and found myself watching him on a youtube video. "Hi I'm Steve Sherman inventor of POWER OF PROCESS." Power of process? Never heard of it. But it must be good. He is wearing a baseball cap, indoors, so he comes over as someone who knows what he is talking about...Then he lets himself down. He holds up a big print and says it's a negative. This is confusing. I find myself telling him "it's a print Steve!" But he keeps calling it a negative. He says that it's a negative he made in the late 90s for graded paper, but he couldn't express what he wanted at the time because of the limitations of graded paper. So he never printed it. I find myself thinking "you must have printed it Steve. It's there in your hand!!! The print is a very dark landscape with an almost white bald sky. I think "Why, if you are an expert, didn't you just burn the sky in and give the land less exposure? This would have been dead easy to do since the horizon is flat." My 10 year old grandson could have done it with a cornflakes packet (or the edge of his tablet whilst continuing to play his video game....) Then he shows us another print with a burnt-in sky and detail in the land. It actually looks like a very nice print. He explains that this was only possible when Multigrade papers came out, using his special split grade technique. "Hang on " I think. In the late 90s Multigrade paper was well and truly out. Multigrade 1V actually came out in 1994., and there were earlier versions before that. Everyone was using it, except Mr. Sherman, it seems. So much for experts...in baseball caps Alan |
#23
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Alan,
That's exactly the print I was talking about in my previous post. I thought the same as you: if that was the guy's best effort with graded paper then he clearly didn't have a clue. But then I realised he sells a video tutorial on VC paper so he needs something to encourage people to buy the video. You're supposed to think, "Wow! If it can do that then I've got to have me some of that VC stuff and some vital video guidance on how to get the best out of it". I think his approach might get some inexperienced photographers to shell out money on a video whereas people who have been around a while will tend to see through it. I say that knowing Skellum is both experienced and a very good photographer so absolutely no slight intended there. He obviously sees something in Mr Sherman's process that I'm missing. www.theonlinedarkroom.com |
#24
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Hello Brock,
He's been rumbled... I've missed your articles on your website. Good to hear you are getting back into it. Alan |
#25
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Quote:
I think you've nailed it on the head, there's a hype that's not real, Bruce Barnaum is another in the same vein. There's amazing controls with Graded papers if you use them, VC papers are not better they are just different. A good printer can use either to get very similar results. Ian |
#26
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There are a couple of threads on Steve Sherman on Photrio. One of which is titled "Video Interview with Steve Sherman" It is a thread started by Steve Sherman in which he links to what seems to be two different videos. On one you can apparently link to free bi-weekly videos about his Power of Process tips and the other is the Power of Process Tips. Yet when you click on them they are one and same video carried out by someone who is, let's say, a fan of Steve.
I became puzzled, expecting to hear quite quickly about the free bi-weekly videos but this wasn't the case. Strangely for Photrio the thread in question only attracted 3 replies, one of which was from someone called AgX, living in Germany who said the link didn't work but gave a link that did. Another person from the U.K. made some comments which looked quite pertinent, after he said he had sat through the video for its 17 minutes and there was a third comment from a U.S. member who simply said "Thanks and that he had enjoyed it". In fact most of his threads get no replies and although most are announcements connected with his courses, it is unusual on Photrio for there to be few if any replies. Even in instances where no replies appear to be called for there are usually some on the likes of Photrio. I found it worthwhile to do this extra research on his range of thread and posts. I had formed an impression after looking at his video which I think can be described fairly and accurately as a sales promotion. I had not reached any final conclusions until this research but have now. Others will have to reach their own conclusions of course Mike |
#27
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Hi Lads-
We need to get down the pub and sort this properly. I'll come clean- Steve Sherman is my dad. Yes, let's get it out there. Brock, thank you for those kind words. I have been shooting film since (about?) 1972. Sometimes very actively, but with big gaps when life got weird. I don't think of myself as a finished, or fully accomplished, photographer, but still an apprentice. Of course, at this point in life I'd better get a move on if I ever want to actually get there. I very much enjoyed Blakemore's 'Workshop' book, and I've found Adams useful. Steve Sherman may indeed be a salesman (the hint of Charlatan is hovering in the air) but that doesn't stop me wondering if there is value in what he proposes. I am unlikely to bin my current 'workflow' as the current jargon has it, simply because it gives me most of what I need. The truth is most of us are too busy with work and home to really explore our medium. What I get from someone like Mr Sherman is a challenge to my thinking- am I doing what I do for good reason, or am I treading someone else's path because it's easy? This is just the kind of topic which is great for stimulating debate. As I've heard the girls at work say, "you have to kiss a few frogs to find a Prince". Steve might be a big, warty old frog, but I'm hoping having a quick snog with his video stream won't do for me. Cheers All, and happy printing (graded or VC) |
#28
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Hi Skellum,
Someone who knows the basics but has not mastered a craft is a Journeyman not an Apprentice my friend. You are on a Journey. You are a Journeyman, as am I. RobertJMan |
#29
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Most photographers that I know are "perfectionist" or try to get skilled enough to satisfy their own quest for perfection that their skill, time and tools allow. So when a photographer claims he has found a "silver bullitt" it always arouses interest. Photography has been around a long, long time, old methods get re-discovered and recycled. It is good that analog photography is still being discussed and debated, it keeps it alive. Sadly some people look to exploit novices with their hard won "secret skills". I enjoy the: shared passion, enthusiasm, exchange of knowledge, debates and ideas on this site, keep it up friends, keep the old craft "alive and kicking".
__________________
"Tea is surely the king of all drinks. It helps against the cold, it helps against the heat,against discomfort and sickness, against weariness and weakness". Heinrich Harrer. |
#30
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Steve doesn@t play on a level playing field and skews comparisons in his favour. His rationale for "Power of Process" is no different to many other photographers who want total control over their process from exposure through printing, spotting, mounting etc.
So lets say from the outset that's entirely normal, it's what John Blakemore, John Davies and many others do, it's what I've always done since the late 1960's and also many others here. In a Pyrocat HD video there's a comparison of films all exposed the same one trade processed in HC110, another trade processed in Pyrocat HD and a third he's processed in Pyrocat HD. The HC110 negatives/print is flatter and much less sharp, the trade processed Pyrocat HD better, and his one Pyrocat HD processed with minimal agitation is the sharpest. What he's missed out is that HC110 is according to Kodak's own comparison chart less sharp (less acutance), poorer shadow details (so lower film speed), and grainier, all compared to Xtol which is Kodak's best all round developer. This matches my own experiences with HC110 and Xtol/ Now most "trade" processing in a specialist developer is one off in a Jobo rotary processor (or similar) so continuous agitation. That could be why there's a difference in sharpness between Pyrocat HD trade processed and his minimal agitation in Pyrocat HD. My experience with Rodinal and Xtol is both give excellent acutance but I found slight improvements in acutance with Pyrocat HD which I've been using for over 12 years now. My LF Jobo 2000 processing tanks are inversion (not rotary) and that helps increase the acutance. I found the acutance little different to what Steve calls minimal agitation. Now the argument as to whether to use EMA -Extreme Minimal Agitation - as Steve calls it is another issue, personally I find the acutance is already excellent and don't want to exaggerate it and more importantly further diluting the developer to achieve EMA has other effects on tonality etc. In the video Steve mentions exaggerating the acutance but in threads (Photrio) he's disagreed when I said this occurs That aside what Steve is cloaking in his "Power of Process" is a very simple truth that we all know and understand, you will get the best control of the quality in terms of negatives and prints doing the works yourself. Ian |
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