Support our Sponsors, they keep FADU free:   AG Photographic   The Imaging Warehouse   Process Supplies   RH Designs   Second-hand Darkroom Supplies  

Notices

Go Back   Film and Darkroom User > Monochrome Work > Monochrome Film

  ***   Click here for the FADU 2015/2014 Yearbooks   ***

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 24th July 2022, 02:18 PM
GoodOldNorm's Avatar
GoodOldNorm GoodOldNorm is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Lincolnshire UK
Posts: 1,227
Default Minimum amount of stock developer to develop film.

Where do you find out how much stock developer is needed to develop film. I have seen online that Xtol needs 100mm stock per 135mm film, D76 120ml stock per film and Rodinol 6mm stock per film. Please correct the later if the stock amount per film is wrong. What about other developers like, Pyrocat HD, D23, FX 37, Perceptol etc.?
__________________
"Tea is surely the king of all drinks. It helps against the cold, it helps against the heat,against discomfort and sickness, against weariness and weakness". Heinrich Harrer.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 24th July 2022, 02:38 PM
DavidMB DavidMB is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Crewe
Posts: 53
Default

As I use rotary processing in a Jobo 1510 tank I only need 140ml of working solution I have tested ID11 at 1+3 dilution for 35mm and 120 films and had no problem so ID11 and D76 should be OK with 35ml of stock for one film. This really only matters when using small Jobo rotary tanks or devices like a the old Rondinax or modern LAB-BOX that use smallish volumes (270 ml) with continuous agitation.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 24th July 2022, 08:29 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Daventry, Northants
Posts: 8,968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMB View Post
As I use rotary processing in a Jobo 1510 tank I only need 140ml of working solution I have tested ID11 at 1+3 dilution for 35mm and 120 films and had no problem so ID11 and D76 should be OK with 35ml of stock for one film. This really only matters when using small Jobo rotary tanks or devices like a the old Rondinax or modern LAB-BOX that use smallish volumes (270 ml) with continuous agitation.
Yes a real bone of contention is this question. at least on Photrio .

I have often wondered how this affected rotary processing when it comes down to as little as 35ml but clearly you have managed it OK which is useful to know so thanks.

I once wrote to Ilford about Perceptol where on a certain interpretation of the tech sheets you might conclude that 250ml stock was the minimum and indeed some have on that other site.

I have managed inversion in a Jobo (250ml in round figures) with 1+3 so 62.5 ml and the negs and prints from those negs were fine as far as I could see.

In the hope of helping others and after writing to Ilford to ask if there was a min recommended stock as I had managed with 62.5 ml, its reply said that 70ml might be better as less than this might be OK but with no safety margin

So I then conveyed what Ilford had said to those on Photrio in hope that this might help others. Well if it did help then those whom it helped have never said so and those for whom this was nonsense said it was nonsense despite the lford reply

The logical conclusion if, say, 100ml is the min stock required is that all rotary processing is a "no,no" which has to be patent nonsense surely. Otherwise Ilford would give users a massive warning to this effect, surely?

In the case of the interpretation that with Perceptol it is 250ml min then if you want to use the 1+3 dilution a 1L tank is required and at 4 films per 1L packet, it turns Perceptol into a very expensive developer

This kind of response is thankfully not a FADU one but it does illustrate how difficult it can be to cause some to even consider that others' experience might be different

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 24th July 2022, 08:51 PM
John King John King is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: County Durham
Posts: 3,318
Default

Sorry folks I cannot see where or what the problem is. The quantity should be dictated by the size of the tank and the dilution of the developer stock solution. A weaker solution means you will have to develop longer.

Is there a finite minimum of the stock solution? I don't know. At one time with the original (Agfa) Rodinal there was a 1-200 dilution with long development times (around thee days I would imagine) Sorry I am only joking. But just think, a 1-200 dilution in a 250cc tank a only means 2.25cc of stock solution. Unless you use something like a hyperdermic syringe you will find it almost impossible to get right. I regularly dilute ID11 @ 1-3 and honestly the amount of stock at that dilution if it is 1cc out, it will matter neither here or there
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 24th July 2022, 09:11 PM
Michael Michael is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Ballinderry Lower, Co. Antrim
Posts: 1,345
Default

For stand development it is useful to know how much concentrate a particular length of film requires. I know the figure from Rodinal, from a discussion somewhere and some time ago in FADU; but the data sheet for my go-to, Ilfotec HC has no mention.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 25th July 2022, 12:32 AM
Stocky Stocky is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 276
Default

There's a difference between optimum and what one can get away with. I suspect that much of the advice on the internet has not been tested for being optimum. One way to test would be to develop a carefully exposed film in a really generous amount of developer at whatever dilution is desired. Then do another identical film with a low amount as recommended by someone. Then try another with a bit less. Is there a difference? There will be a point where it's different in a bad way, but maybe some of the intermediate results will be preferred. Then you will know.

I haven't done these tests. My approach is to use a generous amount of very cheap developer so I don't have to worry that I might be getting sub optimal results as a result of developer quantity. I am not in favour of waste, but for me photography is rather labour intensive and I don't want to take chances.

I do have one data point: 250mL of standard strength PMK is not enough for a 36 exposure roll of 35mm film. It was enough to cover the roll in a Jobo inversion tank. This might be due to oxidation, a characteristic of PMK. 500mL was noticeably better. These days I use Pyrocat-HD at a lower than standard dilution, at 1Litre per roll.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 25th July 2022, 06:51 AM
John King John King is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: County Durham
Posts: 3,318
Default Developer dilution

Ah! The difference between 'optimum' and what you can 'get away with.' Ilford give times for stock solution and 1-1 and 1-3 development time but warn the 1-3 dilution can lead to tonal compression. To be honest I have used both with 120 and 35mm and to be honest I cannot really tell the difference and unless you have specialised test equipment that will be very difficult.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 25th July 2022, 07:05 AM
Stocky Stocky is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 276
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John King View Post
Ah! The difference between 'optimum' and what you can 'get away with.' Ilford give times for stock solution and 1-1 and 1-3 development time but warn the 1-3 dilution can lead to tonal compression. To be honest I have used both with 120 and 35mm and to be honest I cannot really tell the difference and unless you have specialised test equipment that will be very difficult.
Am I correct to assume that that warning would be for a specified amount of diluted developer? I would hazard a guess that in that sort of case, the desired density of the negative would be a variable, a dense negative using up more developer. But those of us who avoid excessively dense negatives might never notice.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 25th July 2022, 07:55 AM
MartyNL's Avatar
MartyNL MartyNL is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: based in The Netherlands
Posts: 3,341
Default

I tried this.
http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.or...hp?albumid=575
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	PSX_20220725_094935.jpg
Views:	148
Size:	139.1 KB
ID:	4440  
__________________
MartyNL

“Reaching a creative state of mind thru positive action
is considered preferable to waiting for inspiration.”
- Minor White, 1950
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 25th July 2022, 08:17 AM
MartyNL's Avatar
MartyNL MartyNL is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: based in The Netherlands
Posts: 3,341
Default

My conclusion is, is that you need to do your own tests using your film, chemicals and methodology. This is both expensive and time consuming. I prefer tweaking and putting processing notes onto the negative sleeves.

I don't believe that there is one absolute volume which can be applied across the board to all developers. After all, 1 litre of Tmax developer for just 4 films would be ridiculously uneconomical!

The pic's in the album are negative scans of Tmax film with backing paper issues and they are all as good or as bad as each other!
Best of luck finding your minimum and/or optimum stock developer combinations.
__________________
MartyNL

“Reaching a creative state of mind thru positive action
is considered preferable to waiting for inspiration.”
- Minor White, 1950
Reply With Quote
Reply
Support our Sponsors, they keep FADU free:   AG Photographic   The Imaging Warehouse   Process Supplies   RH Designs   Second-hand Darkroom Supplies  

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Minimum Order Amount required by Fotoimpex Mike O'Pray Photography in general 14 23rd March 2021 09:11 AM
Minimum quantities of Perceptol stock per film adrianlambert Monochrome Film 32 16th December 2020 08:22 PM
Do you develop color film? Nikitha Colour film 2 21st July 2017 07:27 AM
Perceptol minimum stock sol'n for one-shot dilutions Svend Monochrome Film 63 19th July 2016 03:31 PM
WTB Reel to develop 110 film Domingo Sale or Wanted 15 30th July 2014 04:20 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.