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  #11  
Old 23rd January 2017, 09:40 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is online now
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Originally Posted by Lostlabours View Post
Paper sales are declining because the prices are far too high and there's no decent discounting to encourage us.

Ian
What doesn't help is when Ilford said, after a big paper price rise shortly after the banking crisis of 2008/9 that prices could no longer be maintained because of the massive increase in silver prices, implying, I felt, that silver was a big factor in the increase. However if this is the case then there has been a pretty steady and appreciable drop in the silver price for the last few years and yet no suggestion of a price decrease.

Then there is the massive increase in one kind of paper that I have never seen properly explained, namely Ilford Postcard paper which jumped from something around £15 per box pre- banking crisis to over £40 per box now.

OK this is the heavier Portfolio paper and you get a "postcard printed backing" but it was the percentage increase that I could not get over. The 5x7 box is only about £2 more expensive and a 50 sheet of 12x16(6 postcards per sheet) makes 300 boxes of 6x4 but costs about £104 and not £240( cost of 6 postcard boxes). Is a difference of £136 box explained by the printed backing, the extra 5 box containers needed for the postcard stuff and a bit more labour cost?

The prices quoted above are Silverprint's but all the postcard stuff I can find is close to this price so unless there is a cartel between the retailers and I can see no sign of this, then in the absence of any other evidence, I am inclined to conclude that what we pay is largely determined by the manufacturer, namely Ilford.

End of my "quick burst on my banjo" as Ken Dodd used to say

Mike
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  #12  
Old 23rd January 2017, 10:22 PM
John King John King is offline
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Default Prices

Discounting the price of silver, if the cost of paper for the base was the main reason, why then has the cost of RA4 colour paper not gone up by the same amount or even more.
Colour paper used to be more expensive than B&W so, as less people are using RA4 colour now, in theory, with less demand the prices should be greater.

Prices for 12x16 Fuji RA4 on average from 3 dealers is £49.83 for the same dealers the price of Ilford MG is £53.28. Kodak RA4 bulk rolls work out even cheaper - far cheaper than B&W!
Compare the prices of Ilford MG bulk compared to Kodak RA4 bulk. For some lengths it is almost double!

I still smell a very large decomposing rodent!

Last edited by John King; 23rd January 2017 at 10:26 PM.
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  #13  
Old 24th January 2017, 11:05 AM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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The amount of silver per sq metre of paper is quite low, I have the figures somewhere, Agfa used to publish them. They are slightly lower for Colour papers compared to B&W but the cost of silver is a very small factor in the retail price of papers.

My last order for paper was actually packaged at the factory, the make up of my order meant even a large dealer would have been unlikely to have the stock.

At one time Silverprint used to have a good discount available for purchasing Ilford film, this was 30% so not insignificant. I was often buying 60 rolls of film at a time. There's no reason why a reasonable discount scheme couldn't be implemented today for people placing decent sized orders.



So the bulk of my last order (all Ilford products not the Adox & Foma in the photo) was sent from Mobberley to London then on to me. It would make far more sense to ship straight to the customer, the sale would still be through the dealer.

Ian
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  #14  
Old 24th January 2017, 11:34 AM
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GoodOldNorm GoodOldNorm is offline
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Originally Posted by Lostlabours View Post
The amount of silver per sq metre of paper is quite low, I have the figures somewhere, Agfa used to publish them. They are slightly lower for Colour papers compared to B&W but the cost of silver is a very small factor in the retail price of papers.

My last order for paper was actually packaged at the factory, the make up of my order meant even a large dealer would have been unlikely to have the stock.

At one time Silverprint used to have a good discount available for purchasing Ilford film, this was 30% so not insignificant. I was often buying 60 rolls of film at a time. There's no reason why a reasonable discount scheme couldn't be implemented today for people placing decent sized orders.



So the bulk of my last order (all Ilford products not the Adox & Foma in the photo) was sent from Mobberley to London then on to me. It would make far more sense to ship straight to the customer, the sale would still be through the dealer.

Ian
Looks like your planning to have a lot fun/work with your purchase, I'm sure the boxes of paper will be more rewarding than watching a "box set" on TV.
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  #15  
Old 24th January 2017, 11:43 AM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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Looks like your planning to have a lot fun/work with your purchase, I'm sure the boxes of paper will be more rewarding than watching a "box set" on TV.
I need to do some printing missing from that photo are two large rolls of Ilford RC paper and two of Kodak. I've already used up the Foma, and there's quite a bit of Polywarmtone under the Adox which is my favourite paper.

I've been buying paper from students when they finish their Degree course and need the cash. That's usually a very considerable saving.

Ian
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  #16  
Old 24th January 2017, 01:38 PM
John King John King is offline
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Default Silver content

I don't actually know the content of silver in photographic film/paper but they always seem to put great store on the cost of silver controlling the price. Back in the early70's there was a huge hike in the price of silver which resulted in the price of film doubling and a similar increase in the price of paper. (a roll of 120 went up to 50p a roll!!! I cannot remember what make but probably Ilford.)

The increase was short lived and dropped almost to the original level within a few months, but did the prices drop back? I think you can answer that for your self..

Since then there has been an slow but constant increase bring us to where we are now.

Whatever excuse the dealers/manufacturers trot out and are given the light of day, I still feel that we are being taken advantage of.
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  #17  
Old 24th January 2017, 02:03 PM
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Matt5791 Matt5791 is offline
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I don't think Harman have any scope to lower prices or offer discounts. Their net profit for 2015 was around 3% or so. They have a very tight ship to run. Kentmere prices had to go up because they just weren't profitable.

Operationally, I think the Harman business is very efficient for what it is - I can't see how it can become any more efficient without the new factory that was proposed in conjunction with the housing development, or unless changes were made to the current set up. That housing development is not going to happen now because it was declined by the secretary of state so they continue to be burdened by a massive lump of real estate - anyone who has been there will have noted the 40ft trucks solely for moving product around the site.

Silver is a massive up front consumable cost for Harman - when the prices went up and things were rough in around 2009/10, I'm pretty certain it all combined to almost finish them off completely - it's a tribute to the management at the time that 1. it didn't finish them off; and 2. outwardly, things remained as reliable as ever in terms of supply and quality.

Comparisons with colour paper not ideal really, because the volumes of colour paper Fuji and Kodak make are so enormous - millions and millions of square metres enabling huge economies of scale. Take a volume print house like Photobox - they alone probably use a square meterage of Crystal Archive, in a week, equivalent to a year's production of B&W paper at Ilford - I am guessing here of course, but the volumes are really massive (Photobox have 50 wet minilabs in a room. They turn over £100 million a year). Production of B&W paper is absolutely tiny by comparison. Therefore the cost differences.

Also, demand for colour silver halide paper is stable the predicted trend being up rather than down at the moment


However, spare a thought for the poor inkjet folk:

Ilford MG FB Classic: £16.06 per square metre
Hahnemühle Photo Rag 308: £20.03 per square metre

(based on our current retail prices)

and Photo Rag needs ink on it at £3-£4 per square metre estimate.

All Hahnemühle fine art inkjet papers work out around this level.

Last edited by Matt5791; 24th January 2017 at 02:07 PM.
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  #18  
Old 24th January 2017, 03:22 PM
John King John King is offline
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Default Comparative Prices

OK Matt I accept what you say (grudgingly), but why the wide disparity in the prices from the various UK dealers? You prices are around the most expensive. Although you must be the largest supplier or one of the largest in UK your prices for B&W are way above that of the cheapest. (And yest they have it in stock). There is only 1st Call that are dearer with Ilford paper but cheaper with Kentmere.

Is it overheads, staffing costs, distribution costs, postage costs?

If prices are not stabilised then the traditional route of analogue photography will have fewer and fewer users and may run the risk of pricing itself out of the market.

I do also use digital (but prefer analogue). Comparing the cost of digital, yes the prices of paper inks etc are not cheap, but some of the papers you have named are at the top end of the market and consequently expensive. There are some very good papers sold winch are more than adequate for my purposes and cost a good deal less. As for Inks/dyes. I use one of the 'continuous' ink systems where the actual cost of ink is a fraction of the price of individual cartridges. They are every bit as good as the original.

(Permajet Oyster from Premier Ink 50 sheets of A3 price £36 is an example)

Last edited by John King; 24th January 2017 at 03:39 PM.
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  #19  
Old 24th January 2017, 03:33 PM
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Martin Aislabie Martin Aislabie is online now
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While I don't like being fleeced, I am happy to keep Ilford et al turning reasonable modest profits.

I remember not that many years ago when Ilford and then Agfa went in to receivership in fairly short order and it felt to me as if the world of photography was falling all around

The suppliers we all use are businesses and businesses need to turn a profit to keep them going.

Photography has always been an expensive hobby and always will be.

Martin
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  #20  
Old 24th January 2017, 04:26 PM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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While Ilford paper and film prices appear to be reasonably stable at present, the other problem that everyone faces is Brexit, prices for Foma/adox papers and film has shot up due to the plunge in the pound, Fomapan 120 at Process, where I get my film from, now has 120 above Ilford price for HP5+, the nearest film to fomapan in thhomee range, while 35mm is now only very slightly below the price, Adox MCC paper is way above Ilford prices, as is the RC version,Foma paper has shot up in price, so that possibly will give Ilford papers a good price difference, that will, I think, help ilford at home, I don't see the pound increasing agains't the Euro/dollar anytime soon, so imports look to only increase, I will be using more Ilford paper as it is looking to be the cheapest around at the moment,
Richard
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