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  #1  
Old 25th October 2020, 01:26 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Default Thiocarbamide toning questions

Sorry if you've read a recent similar post to this one, but I thought that I might get more replies with a new subject heading.

Anyway, I'm just getting back into trying thiocarbamide toning again and I have a few questions.

I've bleached some strips of photographs, printed on two different papers, using a working solution of potassium ferricyanide. I did some for varying amounts of time on Friday, followed by a much printed 80% thiourea and 20% sodium hydroxide toning formula.

In the pictures and written descriptions, there is definitely supposed to be a yellow range of tones, with this percentage mix.

But whatever the length of time that I've left the paper strips in the initial bleach and then the toning solution for, I'm getting a definite warm to light sepia brown tone, on the two RC and FB papers I've initially tried.

Rereading the information, to double check that I've done it correctly, it definitely states that a warm brown / light sepia, should be produced with the percentages swapped over, i.e. using a thiourea @ 20% and sodium hydroxide at 80% mix.

All solutions have been diluted, as stated, to make up a litre of working solution of each of the two chemicals.

Today, Sunday, I'm going to try some full size prints this afternoon regardless, but I wondered if anyone else has done some of this type of toning and may have any comments or tips, that may be of help to me?

Having just read some more information, it also appears that it's not just the various chemicals used that determines which tone one will get, but it also depends on the type and brand of paper one uses as well. So far, I have tried test strips of RC Kentmere lustre and FB Ilford matt papers, as they are the two I use the most regularly. And yes the tones on each paper is slightly different, but both show a warm brown / light sepia colour, mainly in the light to mid tones, rather than the yellow tones that I was hoping to get.

Just browsing, the picture on this site has the sort of tones that I was hoping to achieve:

https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/c...nleitungen/113

Terry S
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Old 25th October 2020, 02:28 PM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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Hi Terry, for getting a yellow brown tone with standard thiocarbamide toner try this mix,
50 ml of the thio solution add 10ml of the control,the hydroxide solution to 500 ml of water, that should give you a yellow brown colour, at least it does for me, also it might help of you use a warmer tone bleach, to mix try 750mlm of water at 40
6.60 grams of sodium chloride and 35 grams potassium ferricyanide, with water to make 1000ml
35grams of Richard

Last edited by Richard Gould; 25th October 2020 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 25th October 2020, 04:04 PM
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David Lingham David Lingham is offline
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Second all Richard’s advice. If you have a chlorobromide warm tone paper that may help achieve the colours you are after, Ilford WT MGIV, or a FOMA paper will give more vibrant colours. Returning a toned print briefly to a tray of warm water can deepen a colour with some papers. Also, after sepia and a brief wash, toning in selenium can change the final appearance as well.
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Old 25th October 2020, 04:10 PM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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I agree about W?T paper, much easier to get the yellow/brown tone, and the best by far is the Fomatone paper, it must be the warmest paper around, but Ilford WT is very good, as is Fotospeed RCVC paper for a warmer tone,also the MGV tones very well in sepia, as does Kentmere RC paper
Richard
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Old 26th October 2020, 08:50 AM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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Varying the bleach can make a difference, Potassium Ferricyanide and Sodium Chloride will give more of a shift to yellow.

Ian
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Old 26th October 2020, 11:25 AM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostlabours View Post
Varying the bleach can make a difference, Potassium Ferricyanide and Sodium Chloride will give more of a shift to yellow.

Ian
Ian for this purpose is common table salt good enough or does it have to be pure salt minus what I understand to be additional ingredients to improve table salt's running properties?

Thanks

Mike
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Old 26th October 2020, 12:35 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Some interesting comments added to the mix, so thanks for them everyone.

I'll be doing some more experimenting this afternoon using the above points, before I finally get around to trying full size pictures it seems.

Interesting to hear about the sodium chloride addition to the mix. I too have about three different salts in my cupboard; low sodium and two sea salts, so I'll try that combination out as well.

Terry S
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Old 27th October 2020, 04:31 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray View Post
Ian for this purpose is common table salt good enough or does it have to be pure salt minus what I understand to be additional ingredients to improve table salt's running properties?

Thanks

Mike

In theory pure Sodium Chloride but in practical terms for the bleach Table Salt works fine.

I wouldn't use Sea Salt or Low Sodium salt although they may work but contain a higher proportion of other chemicals.

Agfa published around 4 bleaches and I think 5 toners and colour adjustments were by the varying combinations. Warmest is a Silver Chloride based bleach with Thiourea but the latter varies with the pH which is adjusted by the Hydroxide level.

Ian
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Old 27th October 2020, 04:46 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Thanks Ian for info on table salt

Mike
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Old 27th October 2020, 09:03 PM
Stocky Stocky is offline
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Below is a post from the old rec.photo.darkroom site which used to be a great source of discussion but became filled with spam. I haven't used any of these, just posting in case it's interesting for the OP.
<start of quote>

From: Richard Knoppow
Subject: Defender Thiocarbamide Toner
Newsgroups: rec.photo.darkroom
Date: 1998/01/25


George Smyth wrote and asked me to post this. It is a group of
toner formulas published in the early 1940's by the Defender Company,
makers of sheet film and paper for use with Varigam, the first
variable contrast paper on the American market (the very first VC
paper was made by Ilford). This was a neutral tone paper so these
formulas should work on a variety of current papers.
There are three variations of bleach and three redevelopers.

Bleach B-1

Water 500.0 ml
Potassium Ferricyanide 22.0 gm
Potassium Bromide 25.0 gm
Water to make 1.0 liter


Bleach B-2

Water 500.0 ml
Potassium Ferricyanide 22.0 gm
Potassium Iodide 10.0 gm
Water to make 1.0 liter


Bleach B-3

Water 500.0 ml
Potassium Ferricyanide 22.0 gm
Sodium Chloride 35.0 gm
Nitric Acid 15.0 ml
Water to make 1.0 liter

Be VERY carful of the Nitric Acid!!!

Prints to be toned should be fully developed and fixed in a
_non-hardening_ fixer. The hardener can interfere with bleaching.
They should be very thoroughly washed.
(Note: Wash Aids were not available when these formulas were published
but the use of one before washing is probably desireable. Its very
important to wash out all hypo from prints to be bleached.)
Bleach in one of the above bleaches for twice the time it takes to
convert the black image. The prints should then be washed in three
changes of water or until any yellow stain from the bleach is removed.
The prints are then re-developed in one of the following
re-developing baths. Redevelop until toning is complete.


Toner T-1

Water 500.0 ml
Thiocarbamide (Thiourea) 3.0 gm
Sodium Hydroxide 6.0.gm
Water to make 1.0 liter

(Treat the Hydroxide with caution, it evolves considerable
heat when dissolving and can cause severe chemical burns on
contact with the skin.)


Toner T-2

Water 500.0 ml
Thiocarbimide 3.0 gm
Sodium Carbonate 45.0 gm
Water to make 1.0 liter


Toner T-3

Water 500.0 ml
Thiocarbamide 44.0 gm
Potassium Carbonate 48.0 gm
Water to make 1.0 liter


Various combinatins of bleach and toner will give different tones
as shown by the following table:

Bleach in Tone in Resulting Tone

B-3 T-1 Deep brown, slight purplish tint
B-1 T-1 Deep brown
B-2 T-3 }
B-2 T-3 } Increasing warmth with a golden tinge
till a bright sunlit type of Sepia is produced with the B-3 - T-3
combination.
T-2 can be used instead of T-3 but it gives a little colder color
and is given as an alternative when Potassium carbonate is not
available.

All formulas to be used full strength.


R.K. Note: The above table is copied from the original and refers to
the Varigam paper of nearly sixty years ago. The tones produced with
modern papers may be quite different.
Thiocarbamide, also called Thiourea, makes an odorless redeveloper
but is now considered to be a carcinogen so should be handled with
care.
It is probable that the conventional Potasium Sulfide redeveloper
will work with these bleaches but the results will have to be found by
experiment.

Defender also had an interesting variation of the conventional
indirect Sepia toner which I will append here since I am in typing
mode.:-)


Defender T-4

Bleaching Solution

Water 1.0 liter
Potassium Ferricyanide 13.7 gm
Potassium Bromide 27.4 gm
Strong Ammonia Water (28%)
(R.K. I am not sure if this is Ammonium Hydroxide
or Ammonium Carbonate) 1.3 ml

Re-Developing Solution

Potassium Sulfide, saturated solution 7.8 ml
Potassium Alum, Saturated Solution 1.0 liter

A concentrate solution of Sodium Sulfiide can be prepared by
dissolving 15 grams of Sodium Sulfide Fused or 42 grams of Sodium
Sulfide crystals in 100 ml or water at 65F
A saturated solution of Potassium Alum is prepared by dissolving 100
grams of Potassium Alum in 1.0 liter of water at 65F.
Pints to be toned shold be very thoroughly washed.
Bleach until the image is only faintly visible.
Then wash until there is no yellow stain left.
Redevelop until the desired tone is reached.
Wash toned prints thoroughly.
Prints on rough surfaced papers should be dryed before bleaching.

These instructions are pretty much verbatim the ones in my source,
which is _Photo-Lab_Index_ 1944 U.S. Navy edition, NavAer 10-1-510,
Henry M. Lester editor,
Pubished by Morgan and Lester, New York.

The Defender company was bought by the DuPont company in the mid
forties. It continued to do business as DuPont-Defender until the late
1950's when DuPont decided to get out of the consumer photo business.




---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, Ca.
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