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  #1  
Old 14th February 2018, 11:54 PM
John King John King is offline
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Default Print Quality

Apart from the small problem outlined in my previous post immediately below this one, I have again come to a firm and irrefutable conclusion.

That conclusion, I have come to is darkroom prints in B&W are a universe away and reliably give far better quality than those made via a computer - every time. The depth of blacks, the detail in quite dense shadows, the mid tones and the delicate lighter tones are all there.

Also their is none of that obvious over sharpening which happens so often on digital prints and blatantly looks wrong.

In comparison, a mono print from a scanned B&W negative is flat with little depth of tone, with weak shadows that block up at the blink of an eye. Then there is the matter of colour bias in the inkjet print, even from an Epson P600 with the setting intended to print a neural toned image! For all the cost of the P600, I am very disappointed.

As to be expected - In the multigrade darkroom print there are none of the above problems.
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Old 15th February 2018, 12:24 AM
EdmundH EdmundH is offline
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I recently gave a friend a 5x7 B&W portrait I'd taken of him at work. I was very offended last week when he asked me to frame an A4 inkjet print which he'd scanned from my original; it was a light mauve colour and had lost all detail and contrast. Needless to say I swapped it for a proper print!
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Old 15th February 2018, 08:14 PM
RobertJMan RobertJMan is offline
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Default Thanks for saving me a lot of time ...

Hi,

My plan when I re-entered the world of art photography was to "go hybrid": your post helps me save the effort (a lot of effort - learning the digital techniques have a high "opportunity cost"...).

Robert
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Old 15th February 2018, 08:24 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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My experience is that both can give very similar quality, I've made Inkjet prints taht are as good as darkroom prints and know an ex Ilford engineer (before the move to Mobberley) who's Inkjet prints are outstanding. He uses QTR - Quad Tone Rip and is a friend of Ron Reader (QTR author) and Howard Bond.

It's as big a learning curve making superb high quality B&W Injet prints as it is with darkroom work, I don't particularly enjoy the digital process but love darkroom printing, something I do in short bursts these days.

Digital is something I've used for about 25 years now mostly for work, it's just another process, We choose though to use analogue for our work flow.

Ian

Ian

I prefer darkroom prints, but need to know what digitalis capable of
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Old 15th February 2018, 09:56 PM
John King John King is offline
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To be honest I am thoroughly fed up with digital. Yes it gives the instant 'fix' but that is where it ends. The only reliable images (almost) that I can make which are up to the standard of film are images for projection. Even then compared alongside some of mine taken years ago on Sensia and Ektachrome EC, they are struggling to keep up.

The early printers made by Epson, the 1200, 1250, 1150 which all used the single channel for B&W were simple and good, especially the 1150 when I used three cartridges with each with different shades of black which gave almost grain less prints up to A3. Now that was a good machine, especially when printing on matt paper. **

The modern ones, such as the P600, unless you are prepared to spend a lot of time (and possibly money), getting the colours correct your results are likely to be 'iffy'. I have even had a ICC profile from Permajet and that has not even worked properly. Trying to print images taken some time ago, is enough to make you want to poke your eyes out with a burnt stick.

I have a sunset picture which I had never tried to print properly but had a go a couple of nights ago. On the screen it was perfect. The resulting print on Permajet 271 Oyster and the reds (and there were a lot and quite vivid) came out in varying shades of, not red, but almost magenta. I eventually got it close by adjusting with the printer settings, but what a fiddle. I gave up trying. This was after the P600 had the ICC profile installed. According to Permajet the B&W feature does not need a special ICC profile. I disagree! The one that caused the original comment, printed with a slight cyan cast and only when I adjusted the settings to remove the cyan was the grey and almost true neutral.

My screen and view isn't at fault and I have perfect colour vision. The images I save for projection always project exactly as I saw them on the VDU screen. Even film pictures scanned on my Nikon Scanner project beautifully. There I do not have a problem.

I have reluctantly given up RA4 printing because of an apparent allergy to colour developer, but results like this make me want to have another go and sod the consequences.

**These were sold by a company in Uckfield, East Sussex, the name of which I have forgotten.

Last edited by John King; 15th February 2018 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 15th February 2018, 10:08 PM
RobertJMan RobertJMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John King View Post
Yes it gives the instant 'fix' but that is where it ends.
Hi John,

IF it gave a second rate fix "instantly" that might be a compromise to tempt me: I'm only human.

But, but the thing seems to be that the investment in time (and money) is far from instant!

I seem to be fated to choose the "straight but steep" path in so many ways, always! Often I fail but with pride....

Robert
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:31 AM
JOReynolds JOReynolds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John King View Post
The depth of blacks, the detail in quite dense shadows, the mid tones and the delicate lighter tones are all there...

...Also their is none of that obvious over sharpening which happens so often on digital prints and blatantly looks wrong.

Then there is the matter of colour bias in the inkjet print, even from an Epson P600 with the setting intended to print a neural toned image! For all the cost of the P600, I am very disappointed.
1. The H&D curve of B&W paper is largely fixed at the time of manufacture. But the curve of an inkjet print is fully adjustable. It takes time to learn how to do it, that's all
2. The degree of sharpening is up to the person printing. Agreed, it looks dreadful when overdone. Inappropriate digital sharpening is probably set in the camera and passed to the final print within a .JPG file. The sharpening produced by stand development in Rodinal looks far more natural.
3. The Epson's P600 has three inks; Black, mid-grey and light grey, combined in the RIP (Raster Image Processor) to emulate the smooth gradation of a silver image. The inks are based on neutral pigments, not dyes. If there is colour bias, the RIP has been incorrectly set - operator error. Silver halide produces neutral images effortlessly.
This is not the right arena to give advice on matters digital. I much prefer the creamy quality of a high-key silver-based print. And, with careful shading and perhaps filter-swapping, there is far more shadow detail to be coaxed from Multigrade paper than inkjet.
I have never seen image quality as impressive as in prints of Ingmar Bergman's early movie work. The release prints of 'Summer with Monika' and 'Through a glass darkly' were made directly from the original negatives and are absolutely stunning. Nothing digital compares.
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Old 21st February 2018, 12:08 PM
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photomi7ch photomi7ch is offline
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I shall add that a photograph has a luminosity that an inkjet print cannot produce.
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Old 21st February 2018, 03:02 PM
John King John King is offline
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So we are are all more or less agreed then Silver wins out!
The problem with the allergy to RA4 my also have been sorted. I saw a skin specialist about another matter earlier in the week and he gave me two possibilities to follow up. I really do miss RA4 printing, it is a challenge to get things correct, but when you do, it feels as if you are doing cartwheels around the lounge!
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Old 24th February 2018, 07:49 PM
JOReynolds JOReynolds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by photomi7ch View Post
I shall add that a photograph has a luminosity that an inkjet print cannot produce.
Search for 'Luminosity' in this forum and you will read of many discussions on the meaning. So what does it mean?
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