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  #1  
Old 7th December 2012, 09:40 AM
Adrian Adrian is offline
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Default Unintentional rescue remedy for under-exposed FP4+

I recently shot a roll of FP4+ at box-speed and inadvertently ended up closing down by 2 stops for 10/15 shots until I'd realised what'd happened. Oops. So, I thought I'd wasted most of the roll.

I developed the film in what I thought was ID11 1+3 for 18.5 mins (21C)(having found I didn't have enough of what I thought was 1+1, so I added extra water to make up to 1+3.)

When I looked at the contact sheet, I was amased. The frames that should have been nearly black were a bit underexposed (~1/2 stop) but usable. The remainder of the frames looked fine, if a little contrasty. Upon printing, I didn't like the contrast so printed at 1 grade lower. I also noticed grain. I thought, 1+3 ID11 and FP4+ should be very fine grained. So, what had happened? I'd rescued the roll of film, got more contrast and grain, but neither contrast nor grain were excessive. I must have pushed the FP4+ unintentionally.

When I thought about what I'd done, I realised I'd mixed stock (not 1+1) with 2 parts water: effectively 1+2 and pushed it to 18.5 mins dev time.

So the lessons learned are:
1. Always read the label even if it's written by oneself!
2. 1+2 and 18.5 mins is a potentially useful rescue remedy for a 2-stop underexposure of FP4.
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  #2  
Old 7th December 2012, 02:03 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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I always preferred ID-11 at 1+2 finer grain than 1+3 and sharper and with less drop in speed than full strenght and 1+1.

However I used to get similar results with replenishment with the advantage of very significant economy, but I was using deep taks.

Perceptol and Xtol are also excellent at 1+2 you just need to plot a quick graph of the manufacturers recommendations for FS, 1+1 & 1+3 to get a good starting point for 1+2.

I can't understand why no manufacturer gives this figure.

Ian
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Old 7th December 2012, 04:11 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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I think the interesting thing is whether with FP4+ at effectively EI 500 the negs were grainier and harder to print than say HP5+ at box speed?

If there is little to choose between them then if most of your light conditions suit FP4+ and it's your favourite you have a safety margin that allows a FP4+ to be used when light conditions become unexpectedly adverse without changing film midway through a roll.

Especially useful if its MF. Certainly with my P645N there is no way to use the remainder of a roll once I have wound on from mid-roll - well not one I can think of.

Mike
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Old 7th December 2012, 04:20 PM
Alan Clark Alan Clark is offline
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I have had a long spell of developing 35mm HP5 in D76 at 1+2. I give it 15 minutes and like the results a lot.
Recently I tried 35mm FP4 in the same mix for 14 minutes. but had to print on grade 3.5. So 15 minutes may have been better, though this, of course, depends on how much exposure you give.
For FP4 I think Perceptol at 1+2 is a much better bet. My negatives developed in D76 were noticably grainy. Little different to HP5, in fact, in terms of grain and sharpness. But FP4 in Perceptol 1+2 is much better; sharp and fine grained. I think HP5 is slightly better in Perceptol 1+2, in terms of grain. But if you don't mind a hint of grain D76 at 1+2 gives very sharp results with HP5,along with great tonality, and negatives that are very easy to print, in my experience.

Alan
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Old 7th December 2012, 04:24 PM
Alan Clark Alan Clark is offline
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I forgot to add that D76 is much better for pushing if you need to do it. Perceptol doesn't do pushing, as everyone knows!

Alan
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Old 7th December 2012, 05:06 PM
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Extract from Darkrroom Cookbook (Anchell).
Quote:
SODIUM SULFITE
Synonyms: Sulfi te, Sulfi te of soda.
Appearance: White crystals or powder.
Uses: As a preservative of developing agents; constituent of the acid fi xing bath; blackener in
negative intensifi cation; active energizer in amidol development.
Notes: Sodium sulfi te is the most widely used preservative in developers. It also plays an
important part in the process itself. By using a suffi cient quantity of sulfi te, you can prevent
the formation of many undesirable by-products during development.
Sulfi te is also an important solvent for silver halide. It can therefore have a noticeable
effect on the graininess of the silver image at concentrations over 50.0 g/liter.
What this means is that as you dilute your developer from stock the solvent effect of the sulphite is reduced which means more grain but also more edge effects due to more by-products being produce (bromides). i.e. greater apparent sharpness but also granier.

ID11 has 100g per litre of stock. 1+2 has 33.33g per litre of working strength.

so for finest grain you should be using stock undiluted if that is what you want.
same applies with Perceptol which also has 100g sodium sulphite in 1 litre of stock

Last edited by Argentum; 7th December 2012 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 7th December 2012, 05:19 PM
Alan Clark Alan Clark is offline
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More grain and more sharpness...
I have compared HP5 in D76 1+2 and 1+3, and can see very little difference, if any. But compared to 1+1, there is a definite increase in sharpness, and a very slight increase in grain. On a 10 x 8inch print from a 35mm negative the increase in grain is not really noticable from a normal viewing distance. But the increase in sharpness is.
So,more grain and more sharpness, but not in equal proportions; in my experience.

Alan
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Old 7th December 2012, 07:15 PM
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kevsNorthants kevsNorthants is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostlabours View Post
I always preferred ID-11 at 1+2 finer grain than 1+3 and sharper and with less drop in speed than full strenght and 1+1.

<snipped>

Ian
Just to drag this thread OT for a mo, I've never noticed any speed drop in ID-11. I develop my FP4+ (exposed at 125 ASA) at 1:3 at 20 c. for 20 mins and my negs appear properly exposed and developed with a full range of tones. I've never noticed a problem with grain in ID-11 either, having printed 14" from 6x6cm with minimal grain. So I think the idea of 'speed loss' in certain devs is a misunderstanding.

You don't have to reply and I don't wish to start an argument - this is just an observation and your mileage may vary.

Cheers,
kevs
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Old 8th December 2012, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Clark View Post
More grain and more sharpness...
I have compared HP5 in D76 1+2 and 1+3, and can see very little difference, if any. But compared to 1+1, there is a definite increase in sharpness, and a very slight increase in grain. On a 10 x 8inch print from a 35mm negative the increase in grain is not really noticable from a normal viewing distance. But the increase in sharpness is.
So,more grain and more sharpness, but not in equal proportions; in my experience.

Alan
Your results seem to match what Anchell says.
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Old 9th December 2012, 04:07 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevsNorthants View Post
Just to drag this thread OT for a mo, I've never noticed any speed drop in ID-11. I develop my FP4+ (exposed at 125 ASA) at 1:3 at 20 c. for 20 mins and my negs appear properly exposed and developed with a full range of tones. I've never noticed a problem with grain in ID-11 either, having printed 14" from 6x6cm with minimal grain. So I think the idea of 'speed loss' in certain devs is a misunderstanding.

You don't have to reply and I don't wish to start an argument - this is just an observation and your mileage may vary.

Cheers,
kevs
Speed loss is more about the EI you need to shoot at to achieve a good long tnal range and retain good shadow detail.

Good examples are Tmax 100 and APX100 both of which I did Zone system tests with, to get similar results I shot the Tmax at 50EI and the APX100 at 100EI in 35mm, 120 & 5x4.

It's some years since I used FP4 regularly but it was once my main B&W film and I always shot if at 80EI in replenished ID-11.

However you're using ID-11 at 1+3 shich has some compensating affects this also helps slightly with the effective EI.

The differences between full strenght ID-11 and 1+3 in terms of sharpness and grain are more noticable with 35mm than 120 (6x6) particularly with enlargements of 14" wide, I'm enlarging 6x6 negatives a bit more than that at times and I want the best possible results.

Ian
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