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  #21  
Old 4th May 2016, 08:14 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is online now
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Svend, the only film that ever gave me problems with a red window was the very first one I used after I was given an Agfa Isolette by a friend in the late 1990s. It was his brother's who had died and the camera was found when his house was being cleared.

I had bought some Ilford XP2+ for it. I had no darkroom but knew that the local Jessops could process XP2+ film for me

At that time I hadn't loaded any 120 film into a folder since the late 1950s when I had an old Kodak folder. Anyway it might have been a combination of the weak Ilford printing on the backing paper and not looking properly but I managed to wind most of the film beyond the start before I realised what I had done. I took the camera into my local store and it was able to wind the film on in its darkroom and start it again for me. Taking my time I was then able to see the stuff that leads to "number one" etc and had no more problems with that film or any others since.

I was just a question of concentrating and being aware of the need to look carefully for "the signs" on the backing paper as they appear in the red window.

I am sure you will be OK as well


Mike
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  #22  
Old 4th May 2016, 09:00 PM
Svend Svend is offline
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Mike -- most of this stems from my frustration with the Isolette when I used it on a recent day of shooting in downtown Detroit. We were in a couple of wonderful art deco buildings and I was trying to wind the film in dim corridors and foyers -- impossible! At one point I had to run down two flights of stairs and go outside just to wind a frame. Not impressed! I had HP5 in there, BTW.

I thought of making my own index markings on the wind knob, but the wind revolutions won't be the same for frame 1 vs. frame 12.

I'm sure a good LED flashlight will do the trick.

I am going to put the light seals in there anyway, but leave the red windows intact. The test today showing light leaking through the sliders was really helpful. I will be more comfortable blocking that off. If I ever sell the cameras, it will be an easy matter to pull the foam out again -- quick swish with a Q-tip and acetone and glue is gone.

Richard, Neil - you're right, they are nice cameras. I hadn't thought about the resale question. The Franka in particular is a bit less common -- Trinar lens (very sharp!) and the 6x6 mask still present. May be worth a bit one day. The Isolette is going out for new bellows and a shutter CLA next week. I was sceptical about the lens (Apotar) but it's darn sharp stopped down and gives a lovely creamy tonality to the negs that's hard to describe -- and that with HP5 in D-76. I was ready to sell it because it's much more fiddly to use than the Franka, but the neg scans convinced me to keep it and invest a bit in a new bellows. (Red or blue?...not decided yet). The Isolette fits nicer in the hand, too.

Richard - thanks for the tip on TMY. I have a couple of rolls in the fridge so may try one to see how it goes. Google search first, though, to see if this is still a problem.

Cheers,
Svend
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  #23  
Old 4th May 2016, 10:12 PM
Svend Svend is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Gould View Post
...I use folders for around 70% of my MF photography, the rest being on TLR's a rolleiflex,rolleicord and a microcord 2....
Richard
Yes, I love my TLR's. I have two - a Rolleiflex with 3.5 Planar (wonderful piece of glass), and a recently-acquired Mamiya C330 with 5 lens kit that is on long term loan from my sister-in-law, who never used it. I haven't tried the Mamiya yet as the light seals are just crumbs and goo -- this is one of the seal kits on the way in the post -- but I am looking forward to working with it. Close-ups with its bellows....wide and tele lenses -- should be nice!

I was tempted by a nice Minolta Autocord recently, but decided I had too many cameras at present. Money was better spent on film.

Cheers,
Svend
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  #24  
Old 4th May 2016, 10:28 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is online now
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Svend, I think I read somewhere that some films' backing paper have white printing on black paper which might be easier to see. Does anyone here know of such film? It isn't Ilford, Kodak or Fuji from what I can remember. Is it Foma or maybe Rollei?

I must admit that I have never had to use a red window folder in very dim light conditions.

I have used the Agfa in normal room artificial light and could see the printing inthe backing paper quite well but I can imagine that very low daylight might be a problem

Mike
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  #25  
Old 5th May 2016, 01:53 AM
Svend Svend is offline
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Mike, it seems that Ilford is the worst for visibility in these windows. I have not used other films yet in these cameras so can't comment, but will try Kodak soon. Crossing fingers that it's better.

Richard was recommending Foma / Rollei (same film perhaps, according to him) as being the best in this regard. Maybe that's the one you're thinking of?

That said, I am very familiar with Ilford films and with Kodak TMY and TMX. I bought some rolls of Acros recently to experiment with. From the examples I've seen is that is has beautiful glowing mid-tones (from it's slight ortho sensitivity?), but I feel that it may not have the full tonal range (deep blacks, bright whites) that would mate well with the vintage lenses in these folders, being somewhat inherently lower contrast than more modern glass. Not sure on that though -- I will soon know...

But as mentioned, I really don't want to switch films just so I can see the numbers. I haven't found Rollei or Foma here locally, but they are available at online vendor Argentix.ca in Quebec for a good price (I get my bulk chemicals from them - great selection and service). If they are better films than Ilford and Kodak, then I may give them a try -- I just haven't looked at those, and I wouldn't switch unless they offered me a significant improvement in image quality.

Regards,
Svend
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  #26  
Old 5th May 2016, 06:36 AM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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Svend, Rollei and Foma are completely different films, but they do share the same backing paper, I can't reccomend Rollei film's, at least not the retro 800, it is very contrasty, I tried 5 rolls recently and couldn't get on with them, but Foma is a much older type of film, the negatives are like something from the 40,s or 50.s and suit these cameras, and unless your lenses on these cameras are uncoated then they are not inherently lower contrast than modern glass, you should find the results are different, maybe better than modern glass, but the contrast is spot on, just stop them down to 5.6 or better and the results are fine, Foma is a more contrasty film than ilford/kodak, perhaps the best description is it is similar to the original tri x before Kodak mucked about with it (Talking about Fomapan action 400) worth a try
Richard
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  #27  
Old 5th May 2016, 06:51 AM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SvendN View Post
Mike -- most of this stems from my frustration with the Isolette when I used it on a recent day of shooting in downtown Detroit. We were in a couple of wonderful art deco buildings and I was trying to wind the film in dim corridors and foyers -- impossible! At one point I had to run down two flights of stairs and go outside just to wind a frame. Not impressed! I had HP5 in there, BTW.

I thought of making my own index markings on the wind knob, but the wind revolutions won't be the same for frame 1 vs. frame 12.

I'm sure a good LED flashlight will do the trick.

I am going to put the light seals in there anyway, but leave the red windows intact. The test today showing light leaking through the sliders was really helpful. I will be more comfortable blocking that off. If I ever sell the cameras, it will be an easy matter to pull the foam out again -- quick swish with a Q-tip and acetone and glue is gone.

Richard, Neil - you're right, they are nice cameras. I hadn't thought about the resale question. The Franka in particular is a bit less common -- Trinar lens (very sharp!) and the 6x6 mask still present. May be worth a bit one day. The Isolette is going out for new bellows and a shutter CLA next week. I was sceptical about the lens (Apotar) but it's darn sharp stopped down and gives a lovely creamy tonality to the negs that's hard to describe -- and that with HP5 in D-76. I was ready to sell it because it's much more fiddly to use than the Franka, but the neg scans convinced me to keep it and invest a bit in a new bellows. (Red or blue?...not decided yet). The Isolette fits nicer in the hand, too.

Richard - thanks for the tip on TMY. I have a couple of rolls in the fridge so may try one to see how it goes. Google search first, though, to see if this is still a problem.

Cheers,
Svend
Svend take my word you do not need any additional light sealing with these cameras, I use foma 400, when walking around I never shut the slider as some of my cameras have the slider inside the red window and a couple of times I forgot to open it and only realised when I reached the end of the film. I have never had any fogging from the red window, Just make sure the film is winding tightly and you will get no fogging, these German and English camera makers new just what they were doing, they had been making folders for 50 or 60 years or more, and forget about ortho film, your 2 were built for pan film as were most of mine, with the red window in place you won't need any more protection
I say just enjoy using them and leave well alone, as for the Agfa, I don't have any agfa folders because they are the only folders I know of that have bellows problems. they used a plastic type material on some of their cameras instead of leather and 90% of the bellows need replacing. Another tip worth knowing is when winding the film watch for the indicator on the film ahead of the frame No with Ilford a set of stars or Foma a set of double dots, 4 I think, when you hit them wind slowly to the No, also, if the camera is closed then wind to the last indicator before the frame No then finish winding with the camera open, this is because when the camera is opened the suction can cause the film to be sucked slightly in towards the lens and out of the film plane, winding the last bit pulls the film back. a tip givem me by a photographer many years ago, Another tip which works with many of these cameras is to put a mark on the wibder, then with a film at 1 and when you can see the number easily wind on to 2 carefully and remember how many turns it takes to get to 2 and onwards, then in low light you can wind by counting the turns, takes practice but it works, I do it myself and have a paper with the No of winds on with every camera I have, never lets me down if I can't use the torch or forget it and I am in dim lighting

Richard

Last edited by Richard Gould; 5th May 2016 at 07:12 AM.
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  #28  
Old 5th May 2016, 07:06 AM
DaveP DaveP is offline
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If you're really having difficulty seeing the Ilford numbers then in theory at least you can do a dry run at home and make a note of the number of turns required to advance to each frame (it'll be different for each frame, fewer turns required as you get towards the end of the roll) and take a reminder to the back of the camera - then at least if you find you can't read the numbers you've got a fallback option.
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  #29  
Old 5th May 2016, 08:27 AM
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B&W Neil B&W Neil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray View Post
Svend, I think I read somewhere that some films' backing paper have white printing on black paper which might be easier to see. Does anyone here know of such film? It isn't Ilford, Kodak or Fuji from what I can remember. Is it Foma or maybe Rollei?

I must admit that I have never had to use a red window folder in very dim light conditions.

I have used the Agfa in normal room artificial light and could see the printing inthe backing paper quite well but I can imagine that very low daylight might be a problem

Mike
Out of the films I use Fuji Across is the only one that has a white outer backing paper with bold black numbers / symbols. There may be others of course that I don't know about - possibly the colour films.

With Fuji Across loaded I can read the numbers / symbols with ease through the darkest red window.

Neil.
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  #30  
Old 5th May 2016, 11:36 AM
Svend Svend is offline
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Excellent advice and tips, all. Thank you. So it seems I won't be getting the Honda after all (metaphorically speaking ).

Seriously, some really useful info here, which will help to better get along with these old cameras. Wonderful as they are, they do have their quirks. You clearly have far more experience than I do, and I appreciate you all sharing that.

Dave, Richard -- interesting suggestion about the winder indexing. I actually tried that with a dummy roll, and gave up on it upon finding that the further along the roll I got the fewer the turns. Now that I re-think it, it seems to me that it would be a linear progression. Sort of an N-1 thing, if you follow. That is, from frame 1 to 2 is N turns; frame 2 to 3 is N-1....being, say 2 degrees less (or whatever). Knowing that, one could presumably put some sort of tape or disc onto the body with markings. If precise enough, the window would no longer be needed except to get to frame 1. Must ponder that further to see if I can make it work.

Richard -- thanks for the reassurance on the lens contrast. My first rolls through these cameras were clearly not an indication of what they can achieve, what with all the fog from the light leaks . That, and it was my first experiment with HP5 so not dialed in with developer and times yet with that film. Looking forward to getting all that sorted out and really getting these cameras working to their fullest.

Despite the fiddly controls and crappy bellows, I was amazed at the negs that came out of the Isolette from the Detroit rolls. Not as sharp as the Franka's Trinar, but the little Apotar gave some very pleasant tones which worked great for street shots with people and old architectural scenes. And if that came out of HP5 in D-76, I imagine that a T-grained film like TMY would look fantastic, esp. with the right developer. Those rolls convinced me to put a bit of money into the Agfa and get a new bellows. Rather reasonable cost for that too -- only US$110 (~£75) at Certo6 for new bellows (in racy red ), a shutter/lens CLA, and including return postage. Nice!

Regarding Foma and Rollei films -- thanks for the insight. The Foma 400 might be interesting, as I am presently looking to settle on a traditional grain film in 400 speed. I had wanted to work with HP5 but the frame number thing has really turned me off of that. So Tri-X will be next, but maybe I should give Foma 400 a whirl instead? So, if that's like the old Tri-X, is their 100 like Plus-X? Nice film, that was, and I wish Kodak hadn't stopped making it. I tried a roll or two back in the day, and really was impressed.

I have to be careful, though, not to try too many films and developers. That's a never-ending spiral into madness.

Regards,
Svend

Last edited by Svend; 5th May 2016 at 11:49 AM.
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