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  #1  
Old 13th June 2017, 08:21 AM
Bill Sell Bill Sell is offline
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Default Fibre Paper

Hi,
I have been printing on RC paper on and off for about 20 years but have only recently set up a proper dark room where i can process fibre paper.
Do fibre papers have better tonal reproduction properties than RC?
Are there any other advantages to fibre?
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Old 18th June 2017, 09:23 AM
MikeHeller MikeHeller is offline
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If there are, I am not sure what they are. There are claims for increased quality and 'feel' but how much of that is prejudice, snobbishness and habit of use is IMO questionable.
The expensive ones, I think, have a thicker emulsion layer so that there could be more 'depth' to the print. I haven't used fibre based paper for many a year because of the convenience, ease of use and cost advantage to RC.
I would be hard put to tell the difference between prints of mine of the same neg. made on fibre and RC paper without handling.
Mike
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Old 18th June 2017, 12:12 PM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Sell View Post
Hi,
I have been printing on RC paper on and off for about 20 years but have only recently set up a proper dark room where i can process fibre paper.
Do fibre papers have better tonal reproduction properties than RC?
Are there any other advantages to fibre?
I printed on RC for many years, until retirement a couple of years ago, I had previously printed on FB paper, and loved it, but time was precious and working I did not have enough time to print my own work on FB, but what I did do I loved, but with retirement I decided to return to FB paper, and yes, I find there is a difference compared to RC, better tonal range, a lovely feel, and different papers give different look to the print, for instance take Ilford, the classic is completely different to Art 300, and the other paper I use a lot, which is Adox MCC 110,is different again to classic, different papers for different subjects, using FB paper takes a lot longer, washing times are longer, and you need the extra chemical of Hypo clearing agent, I use Kodak HCA, which is a powder which you mix a stock solution and dilute 1/4 to use, I make less prints than I did with RC due to it taking longer, but I find personally that it is more satsisfying to print on FB, and the results are just that much better, also, FB paper takes to toning a lot better than RC, there are only 2 RC papers that tone well, they are Kentmere and Fotospeed, Ilford MG4 is not good at all, but the classic and art 300, whic is a nice warm tone paper, tone beautifully, as does the MCC, also, you can get lovely papers from Foma, including the Fomatone classic, which is the warmedt tone paper I know of, in fasct developed in Harman warm tone paper dev or Fotospeed warm tone paper dev, used at 1/19, can sometimes almost look slightly sepia toned out of the developer, I would agree that prints mounted and behind glass you can't tell the difference between FB and RC papers, in the hand and simply mounted the difference, to me, and I have worked with both, the FB paper is very obvios compared to RC,
I say get some and try it, you won't be dissapointed
Richard
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Old 18th June 2017, 01:33 PM
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MartyNL MartyNL is offline
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My preference for FB paper is more driven by aesthetic qualities; their look, feel and finish. However, to what degree these characteristics can be fully appreciated when behind glass is open to debate, in my opinion.
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Old 18th June 2017, 03:23 PM
Tony Marlow Tony Marlow is online now
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Like Richard I find fibre paper gives a better tonal range than rc. When using fibre I often sort out the printing details in rc before printing on the fibre paper when I put the two prints side by side there is a marked difference not only in the tonal range but in the aesthetic qualities referred to by MartyNL. If you have the time then you do get a more satisfying print from fibre. However Ilford MRWT rc does seem to come close to the fibre version and does seem warmer.
Despite my views I have seen many fine prints on rc paper.

Tony
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Old 18th June 2017, 06:11 PM
Bill Sell Bill Sell is offline
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Thanks all,
Very useful particularly Richards comments.
I too have been comparing RC with Ilford FB Warm Tone and also find that there appears to be more tonal range and the prints seem to have more 'depth'. i.e. you seem to be able to look into them rather then at them.
Thanks again i shall continue on with the FB even though i do have to stand around for half hour for the last one to wash.
Bill
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Old 18th June 2017, 06:55 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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WhenI started there was only fB paper. RC papers were fantastic for commercial use, still the best if you have to scan your prints.

However they lack the depth of FB papers, it's harder to write about compared to showing examples. The ultimate is a platinum/Palladium print, a Kallitype, an Albumen print etc that looks and is part of the top layer of paper itself with all its texture, an FB print is the next best alternative, and even then there's choices.

Ian
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Old 22nd June 2017, 07:41 PM
JOReynolds JOReynolds is offline
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Default Comparing 'depth' of prints on RC and FB paper

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Originally Posted by Lostlabours View Post
...However they lack the depth of FB papers, it's harder to write about compared to showing examples.
What is 'depth'? If you can't write about it, and examples produced under verifiably identical conditions don't demonstrate it, it probably doesn't exist.
I believe in densitometry, which can, for instance, prove the tiny difference between variable-contrast and graded paper processed under standardised laboratory conditions. But while measured disparities between RC and FB prints can be shown to exist, they are mostly due to a slight variance in surface textures.
There is an exception, and that's Agfa Portriga-Rapid, but I haven't been able to get a sample to measure because it hasn't been manufactured for some time. I got a hint that Adox might coat some - I would be really interested to test it.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 08:27 PM
NJHrs NJHrs is offline
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I am very interested in this question. I have been printing on MGIV RC but recently bought a small box of MG Warmtone RC Pearl. I am wondering if I will be missing out compared to MG Warmtone Fibre. Note this is all 10x8 paper as I like that as a sort of working constant for now as I can do 9.5x7.5, 7x7 & 9x6 from one paper size.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 02:20 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOReynolds View Post
What is 'depth'? If you can't write about it, and examples produced under verifiably identical conditions don't demonstrate it, it probably doesn't exist.
I believe in densitometry, which can, for instance, prove the tiny difference between variable-contrast and graded paper processed under standardised laboratory conditions. But while measured disparities between RC and FB prints can be shown to exist, they are mostly due to a slight variance in surface textures.
There is an exception, and that's Agfa Portriga-Rapid, but I haven't been able to get a sample to measure because it hasn't been manufactured for some time. I got a hint that Adox might coat some - I would be really interested to test it.

Ok, best described would be to go a step further and to where there's a greater difference Platinum/Palladium prints, Kallitypes etc where the image sits on and in the top layer of the water colour paper, this is the ultimate in terms of what some call depth when describing differences.

Will RC/PE papers the paper base itself is encapsulated in a resin or polythene layer, the that can be flat (glossy) or patterned (pearl), or have a matte finish. The emulsion on a FB paper sits on the baryta laye which is coated on the paper base, it doesn't totally hide the texture of that base. To many that has a far more natural feel when air dried, witha bit of heat or staeming that becomes slightly flatter and a touch more glossy, however still not close to an RC Glossy print.

If you want high gloss with a FB glossy paper you need to hot glaze it which was once common. That's a simplistic version of what some call depth.

Portriga Rapid was a warmtone paper with a matt surface, like any warm tone the measured Dmax is lower than a Bromide paper in a warm tone developer, this is partly due to image colour, but the Matt surface knock Dmax down as well. I don't think I have any prints left made on it - I only bought 10 sheets of 20x16 back in the mid 1980's.

Ian
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