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  #1  
Old 19th May 2022, 07:48 AM
PeteK PeteK is offline
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Default Developing expired *Original* FP4

Morning guys.
I bought an alden74 bulk loader with an unspecified amount of film in it. Weighing the unit suggested there was about 30' inside. I cut a foot off and dropped it in a tank alongside a couple of loaded spools and semi stand developed it in caffenol c-l, purely to find out what it was. It turns out it is Ilford FP4 Safety Film which plonks it firmly in the 90s. I have no idea how this was stored so I made up a short roll and shot it at 1/64 on my little Ricoh 500 RF (love that camera, so much fun). I then developed it in ID-11 at box speed. (See images). The negatives were a bit thin so the next roll is going to be developed +1. I am also going to develop it in HC110 (N&T Euro110) bought especially for the job. Now, massive dev gives 12mins at 20°c (dilution B, 1:31) for film shot at 200, which seems fine, although that is for FP4+. I was however thinking of using dilution H (1:62) and doubling the dev time. OK, here come the questions.
1) is FP4 the same as FP4+ in terms of development?
B) is HC110 the way to go? (I also bought some rodders)
iii) Does a longer developing time (greater dilution) lead to a greater possibility of fog?

As for the film, I made up 6x24 rolls, shot one and put the rest in the freezer so it doesn't deteriorate further, was that a good idea? I still have a couple of rolls worth that I took out of the loader and stored. I would have canistered the lot but I ran out of cans

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, as always

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Old 19th May 2022, 08:51 AM
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MartyNL MartyNL is offline
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Hi Pete,
If you have thin negs at iso64 try shooting at iso32. This should sort out the negative density as the film seems to have lost more than 1 stop of speed in the intervening 25+ years.

The negs do look a bit flat so adding +1 development sounds like a good idea.
HC-110 or equivalent should be absolutely fine at either dilution B 1:31 or H 1:63.
MDC gives normal development FP4+ iso125 dil. B @20c between 7-9 mins (14-18 mins dil. H). I don't know why the times can't be more precise but 8mins/16mins sounds like a good bet.

I wouldn't worry about the developer dilution adding extra fog, I should think it would be negligible after the intervening 25+ years!

This would be my approach, tweaking along the way after processing each film. Best of luck and let us know how you get on.
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Old 19th May 2022, 11:59 AM
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Martin Aislabie Martin Aislabie is offline
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A few years ago, I found some original FP4 (circa 1988) and thought it had lost about 1 stop when I tried it - just out of curiosity.

More exposure is the safe way to go, so perhaps start by rating it at 50 ASA.

Extra time in the developer to help with the counteract the loss of contrast would probably also be useful - say an extra 10%.

You are never going to get as good a result with old films as you are with fresh stock - but it can be fun just to have a play.

And so course - as a freebie, it owes you nothing.

Martin
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Old 19th May 2022, 12:36 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteK View Post
...so I made up a short roll and shot it at 1/64 on my little Ricoh 500 RF (love that camera, so much fun).
Looking the Ricoh up, it looks extremely similar to a Canon branded model that I have somewhere. I think that I bought it in W H Smith's of all places, at the beginning of the 1980's.

I took a lot of colour print film with it, but trying it again not that long ago, I found the lens a little soft for my liking now.

Terry S
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Old 19th May 2022, 05:46 PM
PeteK PeteK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartyNL View Post
Hi Pete,

If you have thin negs at iso64 try shooting at iso32. This should sort out the negative density as the film seems to have lost more than 1 stop of speed in the intervening 25+ years.



The negs do look a bit flat so adding +1 development sounds like a good idea.

HC-110 or equivalent should be absolutely fine at either dilution B 1:31 or H 1:63.

MDC gives normal development FP4+ iso125 dil. B @20c between 7-9 mins (14-18 mins dil. H). I don't know why the times can't be more precise but 8mins/16mins sounds like a good bet.



I wouldn't worry about the developer dilution adding extra fog, I should think it would be negligible after the intervening 25+ years!



This would be my approach, tweaking along the way after processing each film. Best of luck and let us know how you get on.
Thanks i have a film exposed at 1/64, the plan is to use HC110 and dev at +1. Depending on how well exposed it is, the next one I will try at 1/32 and dev at box, keeping the overall +2. Like you said, being free I can fiddle to my hearts content. I will post pics as I go

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Old 19th May 2022, 05:49 PM
PeteK PeteK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Aislabie View Post
A few years ago, I found some original FP4 (circa 1988) and thought it had lost about 1 stop when I tried it - just out of curiosity.

More exposure is the safe way to go, so perhaps start by rating it at 50 ASA.

Extra time in the developer to help with the counteract the loss of contrast would probably also be useful - say an extra 10%.

You are never going to get as good a result with old films as you are with fresh stock - but it can be fun just to have a play.

And so course - as a freebie, it owes you nothing.

Martin
Its at times like this when I miss the ibis on my Pentax DSLR lol. Here's hoping we get some bright, sunny days or, I could drop it in my MX and pair it up with something fast , mind you, leaf shutter in my Ricoh, decisions, decisions...

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Old 19th May 2022, 06:33 PM
PeteK PeteK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
Looking the Ricoh up, it looks extremely similar to a Canon branded model that I have somewhere. I think that I bought it in W H Smith's of all places, at the beginning of the 1980's.



I took a lot of colour print film with it, but trying it again not that long ago, I found the lens a little soft for my liking now.



Terry S
There were loads of lookalike rangefinders around that time but I haven't found any suggestion that the Ricoh was rebranded, although, chinon...or was it cosina...made loads of different cameras. I wanted a cheap (£28, check), small (fits easily in my jeans pocket), fully manual rangefinder, just for fun. I wanted an Olympus SC but untested ones cost just shy of three figures. I looked at Minolta Himatic 7s but they are a bit big and the s7ii is eyewateringly expensive. Enter the Ricoh. The lens isn't super fast (f2.8) and is soft wide open but stop it down and its capable of lovely shots. OK, the Olympus is a touch sharper but the Ricoh is a whole lot cheaper For serious stuff though I break out my MX or Yashica mat

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Old 20th May 2022, 05:05 PM
PeteK PeteK is offline
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OK. Here's the late 80s fp4 shot at iso64 and developed at 250 in HC110 @20° for 13:30 These were scanned using my DSLR & 100mm macro lens. I exposed it ±0 they have been flipped but haven't been tinkered with other than that

I am quite happy with that. There are some horrible things happening in lighter areas like the sky but as a test/bit of fun film that will do I think

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Old 21st May 2022, 07:40 AM
John King John King is offline
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The first couple of images had what looked like a bit of edge fogging and yes the contrast was a bit iffy but hey ho the film was free.

The rest were perfectly acceptable and looked fine on my laptop. But you say there are problems with skin tones, but unless you use the film for a lot of portraits, is that a problem?

Apart from the loss of contrast is there any fogging (or is that the cause of the loss of contrast) There is a chemical that can be added to developer which will reduce the fogging and increase the contrast but for the life of me I cannot remember the name. That may allow you to regain a bit of the film speed. I have never used anything like it but it may help
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Old 21st May 2022, 08:07 AM
John King John King is offline
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Default Anti fogging additive

I have just made a quick search on the web and came up with the anti fogging chemical name which is Benzotriazole.

Then on on the Photrio site there was a post about using it. The recommendation for use is 1gm per 100cc of water and then to be shaken vigorously because it is slow to dissolve but apparently heating the water to 50C makes this easier.

From the resulting solution add 10cc to the working developer (I does not say what the quantity of working solution is (?) which will take some experimentation. It does not mention any change in developing time though.

I was wrong about speed being restored in fact the speed from the ORIGINAL is reduced

I would think if you feel a bit of experimentation, where to start to look for the places that sell it be Silverprint, although Firstcall sell something with a similar name (1-phenyl- 5-mercaptotiazole) it is sold under the manufacturers name of Belini but is quite expensive.
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