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Old 28th April 2011, 10:51 AM
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Default Hand held shutter speeds.

Further to the recent discussion on tripod use I was reading the Leica Lens Compendium by Erwin Puts and in Appendix C he makes a statement on hand holding a camera that “Statistically it is not possible to get fine imagery below 1/250 (a big chance factor is involved when shooting that slow). At 1/250 to 1/500 the chances of a good quality picture are higher but not fully secure. Above 1/1000 (M system) and certainly at speeds of 1/2000 and 1/4000 (R system) the true image potential can be enjoyed).” He also says that if you shoot at 1/60 or slower, make a large number of exposures because the chance factor will work to your advantage: the chance that one picture is degraded because of camera motion is reduced by a large factor if you have more pictures to choose from.

I know many people will say that they have achieved pin sharp images hand held at speeds slower than 1/250 but unless you have taken a tripod mounted shot at the same time and settings can you be sure? I wonder what he means by fine imagery? Is it fine detail such as the fur on a creature or hair in a portrait or just a general 'fine image'?

What do others think?

Bill
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Old 28th April 2011, 11:04 AM
Neil Smith Neil Smith is offline
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I wouldn't get to bogged down with technicalities, been there and done that. The best criteria for judging image quality is that you are happy with the result, if it is sharp enough for you then it is sharp enough. If the image is for someone else, then as long is it up to their required standard then the job is a good one.

It can actually work against the creative process if you start to question technicalities too much. I know when I have not used a fast enough shutter speed when I'm shooting handheld, its when I am not happy with the resulting sharpness.

Neil
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Old 28th April 2011, 11:21 AM
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dsallen dsallen is offline
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Hi Bill,

In all areas of photography there is 'theory' and 'practice'. If you want to have the most detailed pin sharp photographs then use large format, slow film, a sturdy tripod, accurate focussing and a small aperture. If that aint going to work for the type of photography you like to do you enter that great space that confronts most photographers – compromise.

Hand-holding is a compromise. Theoretically, as our limbs are not stationary like a tripod we are technically making a photograph with a moving camera whichever speed you use. 1/1000 of a second will still record your bodies movement. However, practice shows that much slower speeds can produce consistently good results. Mostly it is a combination of type of camera, how much you shake, how much you are practiced in holding your camera as still a possible plus whether you had one too many ales/vinos/ciders/coffee/etc the night before.

As I mentioned in the tripod thread, most of my photographs are hand-held. However, I do use a 1960s shoulder brace (basically a short pole with a tripod screw at one end and a collapsible plastic semi-circle that rests on the shoulder at the other end) to ensure that I get sharp pictures.

Shooting anywhere between 1/60 to 1/15 delivers consistently good results. I do not recall a single image that has proved to be unusable because of camera movement or lack of detail. Failures are always down to not seeing clearly enough.

However, using a Mamiya 7 I do not have to worry about mirror movement, moving shutter curtains, etc and the shoulder brace delivers images without any visible shake (I only print 16" x 12"). This all suits the urban photographs that I like to make.

As to comparisons between a hand-held shot and the same shot made using a tripod, I feel that this sort of testing is unnecessary. If the image you want to make needs a tripod then it should be used. If using a tripod would prevent you making the image then the fact that it might be technically sharper is no help.

Happy photography.
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Old 28th April 2011, 11:30 AM
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I don't think you can ignore the size of enlargement of a print in the equation. Personally, I know I have a signficant risk of 'camera shake' at anything lower than 1/125 - largely down to my metabolism.
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Old 28th April 2011, 11:37 AM
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When I have worked hand held I have been happy with the results. Also if I feel a creative image can be had by working hand held, which would have been missed otherwise, I do not hesitate to give it a go. However care has to be taken to ensure good results. I list a few points that I would take in to consideration when working hand held:

1/ Shutter speed far too low - uprate film or use a fast film.
2/ You are more likely to have a sharp image with a wide lens than a telephoto.
3/ Take advantage of any support that may be handy to help steady the camera - wall, fence, tree, rock, car etc.
4/ Use self timer and mirror lock up if they are available on the camera.

There are a few examples of my hand held work in my National Slate Museum Album.

http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.or...hp?albumid=347

Shutter speeds would have been 15/30/60 with f 4 to f 5.6 . Self timer and mirror lock-up were used on my Nikon Fm2 +24 mm lens.

Neil.
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Last edited by B&W Neil; 28th April 2011 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 28th April 2011, 11:54 AM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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With my 35mm cameras, all leaf shutter rangefinders or viewfinder cameras, I can and often do handhold down to 1/8, with SLR's I wouldn't like to try it at less than 1/60 due to the risk of the mirror causing vibration etc, with MF either tlr,s or folders, I will happily handhold to 1/15, accept for 1 camera that I have just got, an ensign selfix 820, which is big and heavy and I prefer to use a monopod at all speeds, and at least 1/100 to 250 for handheld, with my Bronica I would not handhold at less than 125, again due to the heavy mirror clunk.
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Old 28th April 2011, 12:05 PM
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Probably what he is saying applies to every camera system, but in real terms, is almost totally impracticle. If image quality is no good on a Leica M under those sort of speeds (and indeed the R under the speeds listed!) goodness only knows what he thinks of the rest of the world using SLRs and all that mirror vibration!
There are many and varied ways of dealing with slower speeds, and sure, not all results will be pin sharp and razor-like, but at the end of the day it all depends on whether you want to look at your images as a pleasing whole or examine them with a loupe
Very silly indeed (and I like Puts' writing).
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Old 28th April 2011, 12:28 PM
Dave miller Dave miller is offline
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One aspect to consider is that the effective shutter speed of a camera fitted with a focal-plane shutter is the same as the flash synch' speed or longer, so to talk of higher speeds may be misleading.
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Old 28th April 2011, 01:11 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Setting aside the impracticality of following what he says, I have difficulty with the logic. Whatever he believes prevents a sharp shot at less than 1/60th or indeed less than 1/1000th( the shortest exposure possible on a P645 by the way so God help the wedding photogs!) must be present at all times so the machine gun approach seems to be a hopeless solution and I wonder how many shots are needed of the same scene at 1/60th to ensure a sharp shot!

When I read your quote I had a vague feeling from info obtained elsewhere that Mr Puts has shall we say a "reputation for being controversial and making arresting broad-brush statements". The quote you give Bill would seem to confirm that to me.

Mike
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Old 28th April 2011, 01:48 PM
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Handholdable shutter speeds have nothing to do with any so-called rules, and everything to do with the angle of view, shutter slap, mirror slap, ergonomics of the camera/lens combo, technique of the photographer, wind, and many more. Its one of those things you've just got to ignore what everyone else says and find out for yourself what works for you.
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