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Old 7th December 2021, 06:18 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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Default Wellington Borax MQ Fine Grain Developer

From the Wellington Photographic Handbook 11th edition 1921

This us a very early Fine grain developer, it may have also been published earlier than 1921 but is the first Borax MQ Fine Grain developer.

Wellington Borax MQ Fine Grain Developer

Metol 2g
Sodium Sulphite (anhyd) 10g
Hydroquinone 2g
Borax 20g
Water to 1 litre

Wellington worked with George Eastman in the 1880's and managed the new Kodak Ltd,Harrow factory f 1891-3 before joining Elliot & Sons, later frming Wellington & Ward with his brother in law.

This developer was the root that spawned D76, via intermediary developesr like DK50 and DK60a and their earlier Borax based versions.

The importance is Wellington realised that using Borax rather than Carbonate in an MQ developer and a lower pH hel[ed to give much finer grain.

Ian
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Old 7th December 2021, 07:27 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Ian, if this were to be used today how might it compare with the likes of D23 or any of the similar modern developers such as D76 ?

Secondly where is Borax obtained now? I ask this because it is mentioned in several developers such as D23 replenisher where Metaborate can be made with Borax and Sodium Hydroxide but when I researched this, it seems that Borax is now a banned substance except for what might be a substitute type of Borax and might not be suitable that you can obtain in supermarkets

The whole business of Borax and where you can get it has me puzzled

Thanks

Mike
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Old 7th December 2021, 07:39 PM
Svend Svend is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray View Post
Ian, if this were to be used today how might it compare with the likes of D23 or any of the similar modern developers such as D76 ?

Secondly where is Borax obtained now? I ask this because it is mentioned in several developers such as D23 replenisher where Metaborate can be made with Borax and Sodium Hydroxide but when I researched this, it seems that Borax is now a banned substance except for what might be a substitute type of Borax and might not be suitable that you can obtain in supermarkets

The whole business of Borax and where you can get it has me puzzled

Thanks

Mike

Borax is banned?! Since when? Over here you can buy it in almost every supermarket in the laundry soap aisle. Costs about $5 for a 1kg box I think. Twenty Mule Team Borax is the brand name.
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Old 7th December 2021, 08:06 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Originally Posted by Svend View Post
Borax is banned?! Since when? Over here you can buy it in almost every supermarket in the laundry soap aisle. Costs about $5 for a 1kg box I think. Twenty Mule Team Borax is the brand name.
Svend I appreciate what you are saying and it is true that under the name Borax there are products mentioned - in your case in N America it is usually Twenty Mule Team Borax but is this the same stuff?

Few if any of the photographic retailers who supply raw chemicals seem to stock Borax and this may simply because it is easily obtainable from non photographic sources and more cheaply so there is no point in photo retailers stocking but it may not be the same stuff.

If you google Borax it keeps coming up with its banishment for sale in the EU and U.K. and while this is a ban on its use in food it as follows: Is borax banned in UK?
Borax is banned as a food additive here in the UK. ... Borax is not available to buy in the UK or EU at all, due to the 'borate' group of chemicals being reclassified in 2010 as potentially hazardous to health. However, you can purchase a borax substitute in the UK, which does a very similar job.21 Nov 2020

I find this confusing, Yes the last sentence in the quote does give hope in the form of Borax substitute but is it a substitute in photographic terms?

Mike
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Old 7th December 2021, 08:15 PM
Svend Svend is offline
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Mike, I have read several photo chemistry recipes calling for borax, and in parentheses it says 20 Mule Team, so yes, I believe you can use the laundry booster borax for your developer formula. Same stuff.

Can you buy 20 Mule Team in the UK?
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Old 7th December 2021, 08:32 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Originally Posted by Svend View Post
Mike, I have read several photo chemistry recipes calling for borax, and in parentheses it says 20 Mule Team, so yes, I believe you can use the laundry booster borax for your developer formula. Same stuff.

Can you buy 20 Mule Team in the UK?
Svend, no or certainly not easily. I just read an article on 20 Mule and it would seem that this may be the same borax needed in photo developers but it was a U.S.article which took great pleasure in pointing out that the reader should be glad to live in the U.S. where fortunately the authorities have a more rational approach Borax than the more easily panicked U.K. and E.U. authorities - nowhere is there any mention of its uses as a developer chemical in this article or in any other article I can find. We are a lost tribe that most of the internet assumes to be extinct. Does anyone use photochemicals any more? Hasn't film ceased to exist?

So all acerbic wit apart, I was none the wiser. We are back to the key question: Who amongst our U.K. contingent uses borax and from where do they obtain it. Hopefully the answer is that our so-called borax substitute which you can get in supermarkets is OK but I await an answer

Mike
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Old 7th December 2021, 09:44 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Borax seems to be widely available on eBay UK Mike, both as original borax and the substitute version. And if I recall correctly, my local 'Savers' sells it and maybe even my local pound shop.

Terry S
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Old 7th December 2021, 10:05 PM
Nat Polton Nat Polton is offline
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When I was a child we always had a box of Borax B.P. in the medicine chest.
It was mixed as required with tap water and dabbed on cuts and grazes and I remember it being dabbed on an gnat bite once.
Never swallowed though.
Perhaps these things are frowned on by the medical world these days.

The same way the EU banned genuine carbolic soap, most of it is carbolic scented in the UK. Also older UK members may remember Wrights Coal Tar Soap. Coal tar no longer allowed in domestic products, EU banned it, only coal tar scent.
Plenty of Borax available on Ebay and if you are very choosey Nik and Trik sell it along with a host of other chemicals.
The oddest one to go was Camphorated oil. Banned now because some people thought you drank the stuff instead of rubbing it on their chests. Accident and Emergency departments must see some curious cases.


Cheers.
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Old 7th December 2021, 11:49 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Thanks, so Terry says that his local "Savers" has it and may be even his local pound shop. We have a local savers which may or may not carry borax which I'd assume to be the substitute one and it is fairly certain that one or more of the local supermarkets may have it as well

However the key question remains: Is this likely substitute the same as the original borax to which I assume John Finch refers to in his borax plus sodium hydroxide as a means of making metaborate?

I am so far short of having enough knowledge of chemistry to be able to work out if the substitute is identical to or sufficiently close to original borax that I still need someone to say Yes or No

Has anyone used the borax you can buy in the shops for making metaborate?

Mike
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Old 8th December 2021, 08:40 AM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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Mike and Terry are both right, Borax is not supposed to be sold to consumers as as an aid alonside soaps for washing clothes etc. It was also used in bath salts.

What you see on the shelves in hardware stores etc marked Borax usually has a small Substittute label as well, it's actulally Sodium Sequicarbonate. So you need to be careful as it's not suitable for photographic ues.

Borax (Sodium Tetraborate) isn't banned I used to but it 2 or 3 metric tins at a time from Consolidated Borax - 20 Mule Team is their brand name,and as Terry points out it's widely available on the Internet.

Ian
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