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Old 24th January 2020, 07:17 PM
Alan Clark Alan Clark is offline
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Default which sepia toner?

I have always had good results with Fotospeed ST20 sepia toner and particularly like the increase in contrast it gives over an untoned print from the same negative. But I have been wondering about using a direct toner - one that doesn't need a bleach first. I see that Moersch does several of these. Has anybody tried them? Or any other direct sepia/brown toners that may be still available?
Years ago I used Agfa Viradon which was a direct toner. I seem to remember that it reduced the density of the shadows slightly, thus reducing contrast. Not a good feature.

Alan
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Old 25th January 2020, 06:06 PM
John King John King is offline
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Default Sepia Tone

I have not used a sepia toner for perhaps 20+ years and not really knowing anything different I would have thought that the effects of sepia toning such as the extended life would be lost without the action of the bleach on the visible image. The procedures have changed but I am not sure that using one with a short cut is the best way to go.

I have used the ones with the 'traditional' bleach bad egg smell and found then easier to use in the long run than the Patterson one which did not smell.
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Old 25th January 2020, 06:15 PM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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I don't think that there are any of these brown toners in production, I personally use the FomaToner sepia, it is a 2 solution toner, you get the bleach and just the toner, no need for the additive it is already there, and works well, plus the mixed baths keep for ages, John, you can still get the sulphide toner, Tetenal are the only ones still making it, but the bleach used is the same as for the ouderless toners, I used to use it a lot, but you needed to have the darkroom door open as I had not much ventilation back then, and I finally gave into my Wifes complaints of the house smelling of rotten eggs, and not being able to get rid of the stink for hours, and switched to the thiorea toner to keep peace, and have nhot regretted the switch
Richard
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Old 25th January 2020, 06:36 PM
Alan Clark Alan Clark is offline
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Richard, Process Supplies sells Moersch toners. I had the impression that some of these were direct toners, i.e. used without a bleach.
John, toning without a bleach first isn't really a short cut. I think it's just a different process.
I am happy to carry on using the Fotospeed ST20, but was just curious about direct toners and if anyone was using them.

Alan
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Old 25th January 2020, 07:06 PM
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MartyNL MartyNL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Clark View Post
Richard, Process Supplies sells Moersch toners. I had the impression that some of these were direct toners, i.e. used without a bleach.
John, toning without a bleach first isn't really a short cut. I think it's just a different process.
I am happy to carry on using the Fotospeed ST20, but was just curious about direct toners and if anyone was using them.

Alan
Alan, like you I'm also interested in the Moersch toners a couple of which appear to be one bath. In my next order I'll probably order both just to have a dabble in the darkroom and satisfy my curiosity.
I'll certainly post back my findings.
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Old 25th January 2020, 07:17 PM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Clark View Post
Richard, Process Supplies sells Moersch toners. I had the impression that some of these were direct toners, i.e. used without a bleach.
John, toning without a bleach first isn't really a short cut. I think it's just a different process.
I am happy to carry on using the Fotospeed ST20, but was just curious about direct toners and if anyone was using them.

Alan
Could be, I have never used them, but from what little I do know there was the Viradon and Kodak made one, but they were not sepia toners in the true sense but tended to be more of a chocolate brown, at least the Kodak and Viradon were, perhaps Moersh has made a different direct toner, but I believe that the chocolate brown didn't give as much archival protection as the traditional bleach and re development toners, I enjoy toning in sepia and tone a lot of my prints, which was the main reason that for RC I would use Kentmere, tones like FB paper, but the best paper I have used for toning is the Art 300, I don't use it much, very expensive, but for the right image it can't be beat. another thing that works for me is to use both the bleach and toner at 1/2 strength. that is I use both at 50ml per 1000ml and find that this gives me much more control of the whole process
Richard
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Old 25th January 2020, 07:34 PM
Alan Clark Alan Clark is offline
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Marty, I might do like you and just get one or two and give them a go.
Richard, the Fotospeed ST20 seems to work well with a variety of papers. I like a pearl RC surface, and have had good results with Fotospeed Oyster, Ilford Mgd.4 and Illford RC warmtone. The last is definitely superior to the first two in terms of depth of black. But toning really transforms the bog-standard Mgd. 4. Of course it helps if you like warm toned prints! I know they are not everybody's cup of tea.

Alan
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Old 25th January 2020, 08:27 PM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Clark View Post
Marty, I might do like you and just get one or two and give them a go.
Richard, the Fotospeed ST20 seems to work well with a variety of papers. I like a pearl RC surface, and have had good results with Fotospeed Oyster, Ilford Mgd.4 and Illford RC warmtone. The last is definitely superior to the first two in terms of depth of black. But toning really transforms the bog-standard Mgd. 4. Of course it helps if you like warm toned prints! I know they are not everybody's cup of tea.

Alan
For RC I too prefer the pearl/lustre typesurface, I have used the RCVC from Fotospeed and a lovely paper, and tones well, as does the MG 4, but over the years I found that Kentmere RC fine lustre was almost as good as FB paper, the Fotospeed is a Chlro Bromide paper and was a remake of the old Sterling paper from India, which Fotospeed imported, then later they dropped the Sterling brand and rebranded as Fotospeed, later the Sterling factory in India burned down they re made the paper and had it coated by Harman, These days I tend to use FB paper's and the best I find for toning is the Art 300, also the Adox MCC and the Ilford Classic, but as far as FB warmtone paper the best around I thik is the Fomatone paper, it is very slow, but in warm tone developer such as the Harman developer it can come out the warmest of all the warm tone paper's, almost looks slightly sepia toned it is so warm, and when toned it is simply beautiful I try and keep some in stock along with Art 300 for that special negative
Richard
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Old 2nd February 2020, 07:02 PM
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maltklaus maltklaus is offline
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I've used "smelly" sepia toners in the past and still have some bottles kicking around. However I've mostly switched to "tunable" thiourea toners now. Much more pleasing to the nose (and health) and they are "tunable". Highly recommend the Moersch kit for that (his "semlly" toners are great too)!
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Old 2nd February 2020, 07:12 PM
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maltklaus maltklaus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Clark View Post
Richard, Process Supplies sells Moersch toners. I had the impression that some of these were direct toners, i.e. used without a bleach.
All the "smelly" toners (MT4, MT5) do work as direct toners. I highly recommend getting some sodium sulfite as well to make a "stop bath" else the toning will continue during washing.
The Thiourea-based toners (Moersch MT3) will need a bleaching step prior to toning.
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