FP4+ Rodinal

[Martin Rick]

I have used the above combination at the 1:50 dilution for 15' at 20ºc, but am wondering whether the stand development at 1:100 dilution may be better for both 135 and 120 film formats. Any advice? Another question - As stand development is essentially a development to completion, is the concentration the same for 135/24 and 135/36 rolls?

[John King]

It is a while since I have used Rodinal, but perhaps the answer to you question is possibly knowing how Rodinal works. Rodinal is not what is called a fine grain developer. but is an acutance developer that increases the apparent edge sharpness of both the grain and the edges of subjects in the scene.

Can I ask first, what are you trying to achieve by developing this way at 1-100, which you can get at 1-50 or 1-25.

The original instructions provided with the 'true' Rodinal made by Agfa, stated the agitation should be minimal and the times given for the various dilutions (20 Degrees C) all had the agitation recommended to be 30 seconds continuously at the start then 1 inversion every 30 seconds. I used that method and it certainly worked for me at 1-50 and 1-25 dilution.

What the minimal agitation does is allow the developer at the edges of the grain and the different darker parts of the subject to exhaust slightly quicker than adjacent lighter parts. This would define the edges of the different parts of the subject more than say a 'standard ' developer such as ID11 hence giving what is known as the 'edge effect'.

The effect is very similar to that gained in digital images such as Photoshop when the 'Unsharp mask' is used.

I used to have a demonstration negative that showed this effect which was taken with Kodak Tri X and the silhouette of an electricity pylon and cables. It was grainy as hell, but clearly showed the edge effect. I wrote an article describing this and submitted it and the picture to the magazine Amateur Photographer around 1990 where it was published.

If a good example of a Rodinal negative (Like the one I described before) were enlarged you would see a definite white or lighter area on the edges of areas of different tone.

I have never used the 1-100 dilution or indeed the stand type of developing, so can only surmise by using that that you are taking the edge effect to it's ultimate degree. Nice and sharp but just a bit too grainy for 35mm FP4+.

I would not use it myself because keeping the tank temperature at the same level for the full length of time would be a task in itself, because times are be necessarily longer.

[Uwe Pilz]

> What the minimal agitation does is allow the developer at the edges of the grain and the different darker parts of the subject to exhaust slightly quicker than adjacent lighter parts.

I hear that often, but it is not true. The adjacent effect works in the emulsion not in the fluid. The diffusion coefficient of the emulsion is far larger. What you get with minimal agitation is streaks, not sharping.

[John King]

Originally Posted by Uwe Pilz

> What the minimal agitation does is allow the developer at the edges of the grain and the different darker parts of the subject to exhaust slightly quicker than adjacent lighter parts.

I hear that often, but it is not true. The adjacent effect works in the emulsion not in the fluid. The diffusion coefficient of the emulsion is far larger. What you get with minimal agitation is streaks, not sharping.

I can see your point with minimal agitation, I have had it in the past when I develop C41 with my JOBO processor set to the slow speed.

But with Rodinal I am quoting from a book written and published by Agfa in 1955 where the give the reasons for different dilutions and agitation. How the adjacency effect happens is also described in the book and it is the same as I have repeated here. I think the information by Agfa who formulated Rodinal will be 100% accurate.

I have included the chart for developing FP4+ in Rodinal taken from the Digital Truth website.

The extreme right column of the chart include notes.

Starting at the top

Note 1 Is the original recommendation for agitation by Agfa which is exactly what I said in my 1st post.

Note 2 only states 'Low Contrast' with no mention of Agitation

Note 3 States Semi Stand, agitate 30-60 seconds 1 to 3 times during the development process.

Note 4 States agitate 10 seconds every minute for the 1st 5 mins then 10 seconds every 5 mins

[Terry S]

Originally Posted by Martin Rick

...wondering whether the stand development at 1:100 dilution may be better for both 135 and 120 film formats. Any advice? Another question - As stand development is essentially a development to completion, is the concentration the same for 135/24 and 135/36 rolls?

Martin, I have done stand development on a number of occasions, but only with film taken in point and shoot cameras, most often being ISO400 films, where the exposures will not be accurate across the length of the film, with most being over exposed in my case.

Having read about the process, I find it does help to even out the exposures on the film a bit, making it easier to print them.

How it will affect your FP4+ films, (of which I'm presuming were shot with correct exposures and not in a P+S camera?) I'm not sure. I think the only way that you will find out if it is useful to you is to try one film with the method. And as for more or less developer for the different length of films, I would stick with the same amount for any single film. The amount I have always used is 6ml of Rodinal at the ratio of 1:100 water as the standard amount, whatever the different formats of film you use. This is for one film only.

Let us know what you decide and how it all goes.

Oh, and it's worth doing a clip test of the leader in your Rodinal, (in any film in fact) as there have been a number of cases of the Rodinal just dying, even when relatively new, with it happening to me personally.

Terry S

[Richard Gould]

Just some notes from a very long time user of Rodinal (50+years) I have trued other developers but always come back to Rodinal.
SeStand development alone does not work well, you neeed semi stand with agitation for 3 minutes at the start, 1 minute half way though over 1 hour, but you will lose 1 stop of film speed,Agfa changed their written instructions over the years, I have a sheet packed with Rodinal from the 60's gining 30 seconds continus agition then 3 seconds every 30 seconds and one from 1982 giving 1 minute agitation at first then 2 or 3 inversions every 30 seconds, from persojnal experiance I find thad the 1 minute then 2 or 3 inversiouns every 30 seconds work well, and have used this systen for 40 + years, this gives me box speed on everything including Foma 400 and 200, This may go against the ''correct'' way of using Rodinal, but I have found this the best way of working, and it is not worth trying to develop HP5+ at 1/50, it doesn't work, even at 1/25 you need to increase development time by 3 or 4 minutes or you get soft negatives, I personally would not reccomend using semi stand, I have tried it with various films over the past 50 years and I always get softer negatives with some loss of detail in thehighlights of the negative, also, as far as amount of Rodinal per film, I dilute 1/50, using 500mlm solution, with 120 weather I have 1 or 2 films in the tank reel, it will develop 1 or 2 films perfectly, which with 2 films would works out at 5ml per film, for 35ml I would also use 500ml for one fiolm, for 2 you need 600ml whch workd out at 6 ml per film for 2 and 10ml for one, with no difference to the finished film, either 1 or 2,
Richard

[Mike O'Pray]

I was hoping to be able to say something useful in the sense of correct advice on using Rodinal but have decided that I really cannot

I have just had a look at one of my Afga sheets that I now have no idea where I obtained it and then an Agfa instruction sheet that was inside a bottle I purchased about 16-17 years ago and it is as if Agfa could not make up its mind as one is very different in agitation and development time from the other

Unfortunately I have never used stand or semi-stand development so cannot pass on my experience there

So what can I say that I can be sure of about Rodinal?

Well it lasts a long time. I know because I used it several times at 1+50 after bought nearly 17 years ago at 1+50 in accordance with my bottle's leaflet and it worked fine. Then as circumstances demanded I had to use it again in the last year, having run out of Xtol and it again worked just as well at 1+50

That sort of ends what I know to be true - at least in my case but I do know there are numerous videos on stand or more often semi-stand and as you would expect, all have success with it.

There are articles on it on a site called Unblinking Eye which are worth a look

For what it is worth and this may be worth very little, I think that the usually quoted drawback of bromide drag with stand development tends to disappear when semi-stand is the method

So given that semi-stand development at 1+100 is development to completion as it involves a minimum amount of Rodinal, then it avoids any real danger of over-development as the amount of Rodinal means it is totally exhausted after about 60 mins

I think the one useful caveat is to ensure that you have at least the minimum of Agfa in the dilution. This tends to vary from the conservative 10ml to the likely real minimum of 5ml below which you probably shouldn't go

So this does mean a 5-600 ml tank even for 135 film

So best of luck and let us know how it goes with pics of the negs and prints if possible

Good luck

Mike

[John King]

The only thing you should not do with Rodinal is use constant agitation, (Rotary) that destroys the adjacency effect for which it is famed.

[Richard Gould]

Yes Rodinal is a very forgiving developer, but with Rodinal it is more important to make sure everything is clean, even the slghtest trace of old rodinal in the mixing vessels and your rodinal will turn white and creamy and become dead, even if say you develoo a film and look at it before waashing and decide it isn't good and not worth a wash then make sure your tank and reel's are well washed or as you pour the rodinal in it will die straight away, I have known people decide that their Rodinal is dead because of this and throw away 1/2 a bottle, and I have yet to have Rodinal, either the Adox Rodinal or any other version, die even down to the last drop, indeed only last Saturday I used the dregs of a soft pac ofRO9/one shot and perfect. the pack was around 3 or 4 years old and black as tar
Richard

[John King]

Richard, as I said earlier, I have not used Rodinal for many years - at least 25-30. The 'new' Rodinal formulated by Adox is supposed to be the same recipe. Is it the same colour as the original Agfa version? I remember my last bottle was a deep chocolate brown when I came to the end. It was still good to go though.