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  #21  
Old 25th June 2010, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by percepts View Post
If you are hand printing yourself then why not. But if you are sending to a lab to dev and print then they will scan to print so you may just as well use digital.
The lab I used does indeed scan to print but they also keep the scan files for a year so you can order re-prints without sending the negatives back to them. To me this is a much better system than doing it yourself on the computer.


Steve.
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  #22  
Old 25th June 2010, 10:27 AM
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Thanks everyone for all your advice and feedback on this topic. It would seem that it's just not feasible - at least not in the U.K. It may be different in other countries where people seem to have a much better appreciation of quality pictures in general. From what I've seen on the net, wedding photography seems much more important to couples in the states than it does to couples here.
If people in this country paid the prices they do in the US I would be happy to shoot film. To give people the same coverage that most demand, you would be looking at 15+ rolls of 36 Exp. That is quite an overhead in film and processing, and if you want to provide a book of proofs or disc as most people want, you will have to scan, thats a lot of scanning and you would need a professional quality neg scanner (more overheads) you could produce prints yourself, but if you do it full time you just wouldn't have enough time.
If you could swap to film, and not have to do anything digital in your work flow then it's possible, but knowing what I know of the wedding clients, they will be asking for the proof books, discs and storybook albums most of which involve digital work flow.
My mum lives in the US and she always keeps saying to me, "you should see how much they charge for wedding photography here" it is just not the same in the UK and never will be. If you reduce the coverage of a wedding to keep the film usage down, the clients would see this as a retrograde step, I very much doubt they would book you. Most of my couples are always asking for more, bridal prep, speeches, table settings, first dance, I have photographed weddings where they have had bouncy castles, bucking bronco machines, magicians, bubble machines, firework displays and they always want photos of whatever they have.
I am selective about what I photograph, when I shoot the reportage shots, I wait for a moment before pressing the shutter and try to catch something special. But even with this approach I average about 500 shots per wedding, though you often take 3 or 4 of each group to avoid blinking eyes and strange expressions (more if kids are present) but even after editing they usually have 300-350 photographs in there proof book.
I would love to go back to the days of film, where I did a quarter of the work for only slightly less profit.

Neil
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  #23  
Old 25th June 2010, 10:42 AM
FredWelch FredWelch is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve Smith View Post
The lab I used does indeed scan to print but they also keep the scan files for a year so you can order re-prints without sending the negatives back to them. To me this is a much better system than doing it yourself on the computer.


Steve.
If I'd decided to go ahead I would indeed have indeed printed myself. I was a pro hand printer for many years; it was digital that eventually forced me out of the industry. I always printed my own when I was shooting regularly back in the day.
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  #24  
Old 25th June 2010, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Neil Smith View Post
If people in this country paid the prices they do in the US I would be happy to shoot film. To give people the same coverage that most demand, you would be looking at 15+ rolls of 36 Exp. That is quite an overhead in film and processing, and if you want to provide a book of proofs or disc as most people want, you will have to scan, thats a lot of scanning and you would need a professional quality neg scanner (more overheads) you could produce prints yourself, but if you do it full time you just wouldn't have enough time.
If you could swap to film, and not have to do anything digital in your work flow then it's possible, but knowing what I know of the wedding clients, they will be asking for the proof books, discs and storybook albums most of which involve digital work flow.
My mum lives in the US and she always keeps saying to me, "you should see how much they charge for wedding photography here" it is just not the same in the UK and never will be. If you reduce the coverage of a wedding to keep the film usage down, the clients would see this as a retrograde step, I very much doubt they would book you. Most of my couples are always asking for more, bridal prep, speeches, table settings, first dance, I have photographed weddings where they have had bouncy castles, bucking bronco machines, magicians, bubble machines, firework displays and they always want photos of whatever they have.
I am selective about what I photograph, when I shoot the reportage shots, I wait for a moment before pressing the shutter and try to catch something special. But even with this approach I average about 500 shots per wedding, though you often take 3 or 4 of each group to avoid blinking eyes and strange expressions (more if kids are present) but even after editing they usually have 300-350 photographs in there proof book.
I would love to go back to the days of film, where I did a quarter of the work for only slightly less profit.

Neil
Neil, I'm sure you're right. I've had some enquiries but nobody really interested. All they seem to be wanting (and I'm in no way suggesting that you work this way) is as much as they can get for as little expense as possible and as fast as they can get it.
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  #25  
Old 25th June 2010, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mexico531 View Post
Neil, I'm sure you're right. I've had some enquiries but nobody really interested. All they seem to be wanting (and I'm in no way suggesting that you work this way) is as much as they can get for as little expense as possible and as fast as they can get it.
You're right that's pretty much it with a few exceptions. Though the fast as possible bit is not correct, when I shot film it was all done and dusted in 3 weeks, it takes that long and more at busy times to get the proof book done. I do limit what people have, by charging extra for bridal prep and first dance it reduces the work load as there are always couples who want to keep the price to a minimum. If I didn't do this, the workload which is already demanding would be too much. You often lose weddings to people who offer cut price weddings and shoot all day and evening at no extra charge, most of these people are just earning a bit extra from their camera and often work doing something else. I can't compete with that, on the most part they don't pay tax, NI on their earnings and don't have public liability or professional indemnity insurance. This has become enormously more widespread since digital, I think it makes people braver, they can see they have an image immediately and to some degree believe the camera does it all for you. But as long as the british public accept inferior quality it just going to get worse. There is nothing wrong with digital and it can give excellent quality, it's the quality of the workmanship which is the biggest concern.

Neil
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  #26  
Old 25th June 2010, 11:52 AM
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When I say as fast as possible I mean for the proofs and quote a young couple who phoned me. " When our friends got married they could see their pictures online the next day". There's no way I could achieve that. Some photographers must obviously be sitting down at the P.C. as soon as they get home.
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  #27  
Old 25th June 2010, 11:58 AM
Neil Smith Neil Smith is offline
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Originally Posted by mexico531 View Post
When I say as fast as possible I mean for the proofs and quote a young couple who phoned me. " When our friends got married they could see their pictures online the next day". There's no way I could achieve that. Some photographers must obviously be sitting down at the P.C. as soon as they get home.
They do, some shoot Jpeg and use straight out of the camera

Neil
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  #28  
Old 25th June 2010, 12:44 PM
FredWelch FredWelch is offline
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So not the best quality then? People in the uk seem happy with middle of the road at best. I don't just mean with photographs, I mean everything. I think that the 2 worst phrases you hear today are "It'll do" and "It's good enough"
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  #29  
Old 25th June 2010, 04:30 PM
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May I add a third quote? 'Fit for purpose...' Growl!
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  #30  
Old 28th June 2010, 11:33 AM
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As the saying go's you know the cost of everthing and the value of nothing.
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If you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable must be the truth.
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