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  #1  
Old 4th January 2015, 07:59 PM
Ansel Ansel is offline
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Default Analogue equivalent of "curves"

Hi there!

Been trying to print a few film images and can't get my head round how to achieve the same contrast/exposure values in the darkroom as those achieved on the computer!

When I scanned the image in question I adjust its curve in Aperture (pulling the mid/highs slightly to the left which brightens them, whilst maintaining the same contrast).

Now I am really having a hard time working out how to achieve the same end result in the darkroom. When I apply the same contrast (by printing at grade 3) to what I had on the computer I get a very dark and contrasty image, with no mid-tones and almost burnt out highs. And yet when I reduce contrast (by printing at grade 0) I get the mid-tone and highlights back but the overall image lacks contrast....


Anyone have any suggestions?
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Old 4th January 2015, 08:48 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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This one could run, Ansel My immediate response is that moving from grade 3 to 0 is a very big jump, given that there are 6 steps in half grade steps - each half a grade being just about distinguishable from the previous one and the next one. It might pay you to try the same negative at all the full grades from 0 to 5 just to see the differences initially.

Tim Rudman's book The Photographer's Master Printing Course is well worth getting. Abe Books or Allibris usually have second-hand copies are very reasonable prices

I have no experience of curves but I suspect that using curves as a carry-over to analogue darkroom printing may not be the best way to learn.

Mike
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Old 4th January 2015, 08:59 PM
Ansel Ansel is offline
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Thanks Mike.

I think I may have found a way of modifying local contrast and tonality by using split-grade printing combined with dodging and burning with the hard an soft grades (as described in Way Beyond Monochrome).
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Old 4th January 2015, 09:17 PM
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Argentum Argentum is offline
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just curious but what filtration are you using? Ilford MG filters, Colour head dichroic filters or a B+W Vario contrast head with a single dial to alter contrast?

ALSO

if you are using a colour head with Y+M filters, are you using combined Y+M or just individual Y or M ?

Last edited by Argentum; 4th January 2015 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 4th January 2015, 09:51 PM
Ansel Ansel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argentum View Post
just curious but what filtration are you using? Ilford MG filters, Colour head dichroic filters or a B+W Vario contrast head with a single dial to alter contrast?

ALSO

if you are using a colour head with Y+M filters, are you using combined Y+M or just individual Y or M ?
Ilford MG filters with a Meopta Magnifax 4a B&W condenser head printing on Ilford MG FB Classic.
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Old 4th January 2015, 09:52 PM
paulc paulc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansel View Post
I think I may have found a way of modifying local contrast and tonality by using split-grade printing combined with dodging and burning with the hard an soft grades (as described in Way Beyond Monochrome).
I was going to suggest something along those lines. The attached print (scan) was exposed at G2 and the foreground had extra exposure at G5 as far as the stone wall and so did the clouds.
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Old 4th January 2015, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansel View Post
Ilford MG filters with a Meopta Magnifax 4a B&W condenser head printing on Ilford MG FB Classic.
The speed point on Ilford filters is on a highlight value. That means when you change filter the highlight contrast wil change little compared to the shadow contrast.

In zone system terms the speed point is approx print value 7 to 8. That means that tone won't change much (if any) when you change filter. Everything either side of it will but more so the shadows.

You should know that the harder the filter the shorter the toe and shoulder of the paper curve and visa versa. i.e. The softer the filter the longer the toe and shoulder of the paper curve.

Also altering print time can shift the print on or off the toe and/or shoulder of the paper curve.

There is a happy combination between filter used and print time which is found through producing test strips and takes some practice/experience to judge correctly.

Practice makes perfect.

Selective burning in at same or different grade is possible.

Splitgrade printing suits some people and not others. It isn't a fix all, not least for not having achieved some basic print time and contrast adjustment skills.

And don't forget that with Ilford filters going to grade 4 or higher will require approx double the exposure than grade 3.5 and down. (Depends on the paper as new MG FB Classic doesn't require as much exposure change as MGIV does when changing to/from grade 4)

Last edited by Argentum; 4th January 2015 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 5th January 2015, 12:02 AM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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You may have chosen a difficult neg to print but how easy or difficult it is to make a reasonable straight print ( i.e. no dodging or burning) will depend on your negative exposure and processing. OK this takes us to another thread on film speed testing and processing but have a look at your negs under a loupe to see if you have a wide range of tones.

If you don't see a range in your negs then try lowering the speed by say 2/3 stop i.e. change the box speed of a 400 film to 250 and process at recommended times for box speed to see if this improves prints from such negs.

Making consistently good prints isn't easy but for what it is worth if your film exposure and processing is as it should be then most negs exposed in most light conditions will have a range of tones which should ensure a reasonable straight print that requires only the right grade and right enlarger exposure.

What I am trying to say by way of encouragement is that printing to get reasonable prints requires a bit of an apprenticeship but not a lifetime of printing to produce reasonable prints.

Keep going and enjoy it all

Mike
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Old 5th January 2015, 12:49 AM
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from what you say in first post I would use grade 2 and print for a longer time. Try 50% longer and make test strips.
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Old 5th January 2015, 08:50 AM
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As a learning exercise I would suggest you first try and print this negative without using any filtration.
The paper without any filtration will give you a nominal grade 2.

do some test strips until you arrive at a print time which is the best you can get from that negative.
Note that print times will be quite short without any filtration.

Then when you have got the best you can without any filtration, redo the print using a grade 2 filter. This should give you an almost identical print with same contrast except the print time will be significantly longer because of the density of the filter.

This will illustrate to you that your grade 2 filter is same as using no filter and give you some clues about judgement of print time.

Note that if your best work print without any filtration is too soft or too hard in contrast then it indicates your negative is not optimal for grade 2.

This could be for several reasons; It could be because the subject was low or high contrast. i.e. not normal; or it could be that your development was to short or too long.
Either way, if your print without filtration is reasonably close to having the contrast you want then you can fix it by adjusting contrast filter to a higher or lower grade(1/2 a grade at a time).

Optimally though your negatives should print with close to optimal contrast without using a filter which is why you should do a test print without filtration as this tells you if your negatives have optimal contrast.

Obviously not all negatives will have optimal contrast because every subject will have a different subject brightness range (the average is 7 stops SBR but varies depending on subject type)

So do the test without filtration and do it a with a Grade 2 filter.

As you get a better feel for this you won't need to print tests without using filtration except when you want to confirm your negatives are close to optimal contrast.
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